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Making vs Patterning

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  • Making vs Patterning

    What is the exact reson to have Making spells when you have Patterning? I can think of extremely few instances where I absolutely must to create something ex-nihilo rather than just transform something already in existence. One example that comes to mind would be to create a spirit in the Underworld, or create an organism in outer space (assuming the mage do not use one of the myriad of bacteria and microorganisms inside her body).

    Do Making spells infer other features or bonuses that I am simply missing? Is there a rule that makes transforming a bacteria into a blue whale less viable or worthwhile than just creating a blue whale?

  • #2
    Making is indeed pretty much for those rare instances when Patterning won't do. That fifth dot does make your Patterning safer though.

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    • #3
      There are things you can't transform or gain by using other Practices, and things you can get with other Practices (and the Space Arcanum) but are never Lasting.

      * If there's no suitable Avernian Gates nearby, or you want to skip the time and dangers of walking to a place in the Underworld you've already been to, Create Avernian Gate is quite handy.
      * Self-Repairing Machine allows you to put an object into circulation without worrying about having to get it back for repairs or needing Space 2 to repair it from a distance.
      * No Exit gives you a way to incapacitate an opponent without damaging them, changing their personality or incapacitating yourself by using Possession.
      * Psychic Genesis gives you a loyal servant without having to summon something from the Astral and conditioning it to follow your orders.
      * Create Truth can give you a five dot Hallow right in the middle of your Sanctum.
      * Create Sympathy can create real sympathetic connections instead of Borrow Threads which uses up a spell slot or having to be relinquished (which means it has to be dispelled if you don't want it anymore instead of just casting Cut Threads).
      * Pocket Dimension creates an easily defended physical space without Paradox risk without needing a Soulstone.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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      • #4
        You may be able to achieve much of the same effects with making as with patterning, but they are not the same and the main reason a mage would give for creating something ex-nihilo rather than patterning something else into it is "Because I fucking can".

        That said a jack of all trades mage that enschews mastery in favour of multiple arcarna at adept sounds like an interesting concept.

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        • #5
          They'd still want Mastery for the Reach.

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          • #6
            If you don't get Mastery for any of the other benefits, I doubt you'd get it for one lousy free reach.

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            • #7
              Point being your shooting yourself in the foot to have something you can have anyway.

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              • #8
                The amount of Mana that will be spent just because you didn't have that extra Reach will build up. Especially in hectic situations when you've built up some Paradox and that extra Reach would keep you from spending a significant portion of your Mana pool just to get Paradox down to a chance die.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                • #9
                  Alright, a reckless jack of all trades that's a bit sloppy about paradox. I said he sounded interesting.

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                  • #10
                    In one of his posts about mage demographics, Dave B mentioned his settings assumed that 3rd degree Adepts were far more common than 1st degree Masters, for the reason that Making and Unmaking weren't as useful as developing another Arcana. That post was rooted in 1E assumptions, but it still sounded right to me, and that's been my assumption as a ST.
                    I see the prime benefit of Mastery being the ability to create new rotes - and that being most attractive once the mage starts teaching apprentices or taking a leadership position. (Although the Free Council and Guardians would encourage it early on, I'd think; and the Guardians only after proving the wisdom to use that degree of power. ) I've also used Mastery to represent those mages who focus on supernal truth for its own sake - those who may seek archmastery... or may self destruct messily enough to disrupt the concilium.


                    Second Chance for
                    [ATTACH=CONFIG]temp_709_1572548741915_354[/ATTACH]
                    A Beautiful Madness

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Seraph Kitty View Post
                      In one of his posts about mage demographics, Dave B mentioned his settings assumed that 3rd degree Adepts were far more common than 1st degree Masters, for the reason that Making and Unmaking weren't as useful as developing another Arcana. That post was rooted in 1E assumptions, but it still sounded right to me, and that's been my assumption as a ST.
                      I like this a lot. A multiple-degree Adept is a respected and powerful mage who hews close to the path of Wisdom. A Master is a mage who consciously decided that wasn't enough, that they needed even more power to realize some arcane Obsession.


                      2E Legacy Updates
                      Brotherhood of the Demon Wind
                      Choir of Hashmallim (plus extra Summoning content)
                      Storm Keepers

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                      • #12
                        There's nothing to back up the assumption that being an Adept is somehow Wiser than being a Master. I could see an Adept trying to spin that kind of narrative in order to gain political advantage, but it's not factual.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                          There's nothing to back up the assumption that being an Adept is somehow Wiser than being a Master. I could see an Adept trying to spin that kind of narrative in order to gain political advantage, but it's not factual.
                          There's also the basic issue that Masters are clearly given higher social standing. Convocations are specifically made up of Masters not 3rd degree Adepts.

                          Hypothetically if the society did treat them the same then I'd expect a system more like the Ordo Dracul where titles are assigned based on your total dots.


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                          • #14
                            Well, NPCs are always supposed to be well rounded to be a bit more realistic. PCs are the ones that might prioritize getting that fifth dot as soon as possible.
                            But the thread is about what Making can do that Patterning can't. I posted a list earlier to prove that Making can do more than create stuff that Patterning already can transform stuff into. Even though gaining the fifth dot isn't as big a step as the fourth dot from the third, it's definitely worth it at some point because of the extra Reach and for all the stuff it can do that can't be replicated (or at least not efficiently so) with the fourth dot.


                            Bloodline: The Stygians
                            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                            • #15
                              I disagree, there's no reason an NPC is supposed to be more well rounded than a PC unless it suits the needs of the story. For that same reason, the needs of the story, they could easily go the other direction and be hyper-focused. I find the stereotyping about Mages that's going on really weird.

                              Your list of suggestions for why you'd take the 5th dot and get some use out of Making is a pretty good one though.

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