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  • Hey guys, I have a bunch of questions!

    Hey guys, I have a bunch of questions!

    1. The Ghost Gate spell: When the spell ends, do people crossing the gate return to a material state without the need to cross back through another gate? And if so and no extra Reach was paid, would they come back naked?

    2. The Ghost Gate spell again: If I cross a gate while holding an imbued item or Artifact without spending extra reach, do those items get instantly destroyed regardless of their Durability?

    3. Can I use the Place of Power spell to reduce the Gauntlet Strength to zero? If yes, would this create a Verge?

    4. In Duel Arcane rules, it mentions that you have to account for spell factors with your free Reach. Does this mean that I have to spend reach to reduce casting time to instant and to make the spell sensory range? Am I allowed to touch an opponent in the Duel Arcane to avoid the sensory cost? What if I want to cast at my normal ritual interva? Does everyone have to wait a few hours for each turn of battle? Can my spell be aimed during the duel Arcane instead of being cast at sensory range?

    5. When using any summoning spell, the text of the spell indicates that the mage has the option to summon an entity within sensory range OR summon an entity they already know: does that mean I can summon an entity I already know from beyond of sensory range? Or is sensory range the hard limit? If sensory range is a hard limit, could Scale factor or the Sympathetic Range attainment be used to expand it?

    6. Are stolen dedicated magical tools still viable yantras for Seers of the Throne?

    7. Creative Thaumaturgy rules say that you can increase a Merit at 2 dots. How many arcana dots would be needed to create a Merit (giving you dots when you have none in the Merit)? Would if make sense to use Mind 2 to raise your Allies or Retainer dots if you already have at least 1 dot?

    8. If you turn yourself into spirit ephemera, can you grant yourself spirit Numina with another spell? Or does it only work on "native" spirits? Similarly, can a spell to shape ephemera be used on people turned to ephemera? What happens if they go back to their material form before the shaping spell ends?

    9. Do Order Status Merits count as Supernatural Merits? If so, can you grant those Merits using Forge Destiny? And if not, could you grant those statuses with another spell?

    10. Can I put a lock of my own hair on a Sleeper's pocket (someone that I have not natural symapthy to) and then use that hair to cast a spell to scry or use sympathetic range on the sleeper? Or is the sympathy one way only? (Ie. I MUST have a lock of their hair and not the other way around)

    11. Does someones phone number count as representational sympathy to them? Does it depend on how attached they are to that phone number (ie. is it different if they have changed it recently or if it is the same phone number they've had since they ever had a cellphone).

    12. Can I use myself as a sympathetic yantra? Say, if I want to cast a spell on my mother, do I still need an external Yantra that represents her, or can I use myself (her son, a Strong sympathy) as the Yantra?

    13. If I cast Shifting Sands to prevent someone from dying, does that person recover their soul or is the soul gone for good regardless of time getting rewinded?

  • #2
    Gonna skip the Ghost Gate ones for reasons.

    3. I don't see a reason why not. A Patterning spell would meanwhile simply remove the Gauntlet entirely. The result in either case is a Verge.

    4. In order: Yes, depends on the rules, you're probably doomed, no, yes.

    5. The text is ambivalent. Personally, I'd go with the beyond sensory range interpretation; not because it's necessarily right but because it makes Spirit more useful and dangerous as an arcanum.

    6. Dedicated magical tools just mean you've used it enough to integrate into your symbolism. Stolen or not doesn't matter.

    7. Generally, Patterning is needed to create traits, but I'd just say Ruling is sufficient to create most merits.

    8. No, you cannot; numina are an expression of a spirit's nature, which you do not have. If you transformed someone's spiritual essence enough that they could, they'd cease to be Awakened and become a spirit. The Bene Elohim may be one exception.

    9. No, they don't count as supernatural. You could maybe grant them with a spell, but I imagine Mages are on the look-out for sudden rises in Status by those wrapped in Fate's blessings.

    10. Yes, you can. Sympathetic links are two-way, so anything that'd work for you works for it. You could even use the scissors you cut it with as a yantra.

    11. Your phone number represents you in a way, so if the phone is their personal line it might count as a very weak symbolic yantra. I'd personally not allow it, though.

    12. I don't think that works. Sympathetic yantras need to represent the target. You have sympathy to your family, certainly, but you're not a symbol of them.

    13. Shifting Sands reverses time for everyone except you. As long as you're not the one who died, the person is restored, soul and all. If you are the one that died (and have the spell on contingency), you stay dead.

    Comment


    • #3
      1. I think that the spell is badly written. Since Twilight is a state you can't really "open a gate" - it's just how the transformation looks and unnatural effect can't last without magic. So the answer is that after the duration ends you stop being ephemeral. Unless you pay the "lasting fee" with reach, mana and begging the ST.
      For the nakedness - if you dont use any reach you'll end up in Twilight without clothes. I don't know why actually. But you could take -2 penalty for bumping up the scale or something. I really think that this spell is messed up and creative thaumaturgy can help here a great deal.
      2. Imbued items will be destroyed but artifacts have gnosis and are immune.


      [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by arthexis View Post
        Hey guys, I have a bunch of questions!

        10. Can I put a lock of my own hair on a Sleeper's pocket (someone that I have not natural symapthy to) and then use that hair to cast a spell to scry or use sympathetic range on the sleeper? Or is the sympathy one way only? (Ie. I MUST have a lock of their hair and not the other way around)
        Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
        10. Yes, you can. Sympathetic links are two-way, so anything that'd work for you works for it. You could even use the scissors you cut it with as a yantra.
        I have to correct here. Sympathetic connections and sympathetic yantras are not the same thing and have to be differentiated. What arthexis describes are two very different spells. What you can do is put a hair of yourself in a sleepers pocket and then cast a scrying spell on the hair, which you have a strong sympathetic connection to as long as you pulled the hair out recently. For that spell you need a sympathetic yantra representing the target of the spell (likely yourself or another hair of yourself). Since you can observe the hair now with scrying, you also can observe the sleeper, probably from a very narrow perspective.
        On the other hand you cannot cast a spell directly on the sleeper carrying your hair. You still have no sympathetic connection to the sleeper, no matter how many hairs or bodily fluids of yourself you put onto him. What you can do is cast via remote casting, once the scrying is established.

        If on the other hand you have a hair of the sleeper, you could borrow the sympathetic connection of the hair via Borrow Threads from the hair and use that connection to cast on the sleeper sympathetically. While doing so, you can also use the hair as a material sympathetic yantra while casting the spell.
        Last edited by HardcoreHannes; 11-24-2016, 11:19 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          4. If you use your ritual interval casting time you're going to probably want to be the one who was challenged so you get to set the terms. Ritual casting time could be one of those and it would become a duel of mystic endurance as well as ability.

          5. I assume that it cannot summon a spirit from outside sensory range, for that you'd need Sympathy. What it does do though is allow you to track a spirit to its home and force it to come out of hiding.

          6. As long as they put their sacred word on it, which has always been the case.

          7. Depends on the merit probably. However, you need to be a Master to create Allies and other social merits or to create a Hallow.

          8. Yes, you can, as part of a Life+Spirit Patterning spell, adding Numina to yourself could be a Reach option. I'd allow Sleepers who witness use of it to unravel the transformation while the effects themselves would be as free from the Lie as any spirit power.

          Comment


          • #6
            Mrm, I have to disagree on several of those points.

            7. You don't have to be a Master to create social merits. Not unless you are outright making those people pop into being, at least. Fate Ruling spells could open connections for you, for example, or Mind could make a person or group of people your willing allies.

            8. This feels like using Death to grant yourself Vampire Disciplines, or Life + Spirit to bestow Werewolf Gifts upon yourself. For balance reasons alone, I'd declare that verbotten. However, on top of that, Numina represent more than just magic spirits can do; they're essential parts of a spirit's nature. Giving yourself a Numen feels like it'd have profound spiritual consequences.

            Originally posted by HardcoreHannes View Post
            I have to correct here. Sympathetic connections and sympathetic yantras are not the same thing and have to be differentiated. What arthexis describes are two very different spells. What you can do is put a hair of yourself in a sleepers pocket and then cast a scrying spell on the hair, which you have a strong sympathetic connection to as long as you pulled the hair out recently. For that spell you need a sympathetic yantra representing the target of the spell (likely yourself or another hair of yourself). Since you can observe the hair now with scrying, you also can observe the sleeper, probably from a very narrow perspective.
            On the other hand you cannot cast a spell directly on the sleeper carrying your hair. You still have no sympathetic connection to the sleeper, no matter how many hairs or bodily fluids of yourself you put onto him. What you can do is cast via remote casting, once the scrying is established.

            If on the other hand you have a hair of the sleeper, you could borrow the sympathetic connection of the hair via Borrow Threads from the hair and use that connection to cast on the sleeper sympathetically. While doing so, you can also use the hair as a material sympathetic yantra while casting the spell.
            I don't think we're in any sort of disagreement. I was saying you could scry the hair you left in the person's pocket via the sympathetic link it has to you. You use the scissors as a sympathetic yantra because hair doesn't have much identity by itself; a sympathetic yantra in some way needs to represent or identify the target. For that reason, scissors can act as a sympathetic yantra to the hair in question because they're symbolically defining of its separate existence.

            So yeah, you're right, HH.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Axelgear View Post

              8. This feels like using Death to grant yourself Vampire Disciplines, or Life + Spirit to bestow Werewolf Gifts upon yourself. For balance reasons alone, I'd declare that verbotten. However, on top of that, Numina represent more than just magic spirits can do; they're essential parts of a spirit's nature. Giving yourself a Numen feels like it'd have profound spiritual consequences.

              The difference here is the purview where Spirit explicitly talks about spirits and Death has no entry about vampires.


              [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

              Comment


              • #8
                Yes, the scissors you cut the hair with would work too.
                I just wanted to emphasize, that you cannot cast directly on the sleeper. This has some disadvantages. For example: you put the hair on the sleepers coat and put a scrying spell on it and the sleeper goes into that restaurant taking of his coat at the door. Your spell stays with your hair or the coat, so you might not be able to perceive the sleeper anymore.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wether or not you can or cannot give yourself Numina, it won't help you much. Nearly all numina need essence to work and I don't think you can just pay them with mana.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HardcoreHannes View Post
                    Wether or not you can or cannot give yourself Numina, it won't help you much. Nearly all numina need essence to work and I don't think you can just pay them with mana.

                    Channel Essence (Spirit ••)
                    Practice: Ruling
                    Primary Factor: Potency
                    Suggested Rote Skills: Occult, Persuasion, Survival
                    A wise master knows that sometimes she must reward rather
                    than punish. This spell allows the mage to draw Essence into
                    her Pattern from a Resonant Condition or channel Essence
                    to a spirit or suitable receptacle. The mage may transfer an
                    amount of Essence equal to the spell’s Potency. However, she
                    cannot channel more Essence per turn than her Gnosis-derived
                    Mana per turn rate.
                    Essence stored within the mage’s Pattern remains even after
                    the Duration expires; however, she can only hold a combined
                    amount of Mana and Essence equal to her Gnosis-derived
                    maximum Mana.
                    Add Death •• or Mind ••: The spell may be cast on a ghost
                    or Goetia.
                    +1 Reach: The mage may siphon Essence directly from a spirit,
                    though the spirit may Withstand the spell with Rank.
                    Characters


                    [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Moinen View Post
                      The difference here is the purview where Spirit explicitly talks about spirits and Death has no entry about vampires.
                      Death Sight is, however, listed as being that which sees how Vitae grants a ghoul their powers, under "How the arcanum is involved with the Mystery". It's definitely in its purview. Likewise, Fate Sight sees that Changelings gain their powers from mystical bargains. Can an Acanthus just start granting themselves Changeling contracts?

                      Originally posted by HardcoreHannes View Post
                      Yes, the scissors you cut the hair with would work too.
                      I just wanted to emphasize, that you cannot cast directly on the sleeper. This has some disadvantages. For example: you put the hair on the sleepers coat and put a scrying spell on it and the sleeper goes into that restaurant taking of his coat at the door. Your spell stays with your hair or the coat, so you might not be able to perceive the sleeper anymore.
                      Aye, no disagreement here. You could chain-cast, though; create a scrying window, then cast another scrying spell through that window to see the other side.

                      Originally posted by HardcoreHannes View Post
                      Wether or not you can or cannot give yourself Numina, it won't help you much. Nearly all numina need essence to work and I don't think you can just pay them with mana.
                      Actually, Mages can store essence in their Patterns, just as they can store Mana. It's listed in the Spirit section, I believe?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                        Death Sight is, however, listed as being that which sees how Vitae grants a ghoul their powers, under "How the arcanum is involved with the Mystery". It's definitely in its purview. Likewise, Fate Sight sees that Changelings gain their powers from mystical bargains. Can an Acanthus just start granting themselves Changeling contracts?
                        Spirit has litterally 4 things in its purview: Essence, spirits, the Shadow, the Gauntlet. And a spell that specifically rises Rank and grants Numina to the spirits.
                        Fate has nothing about Changelings: Blessings, hexes, probability, fortune, oaths, promises, intentions, destiny. It can alter Changeling powers a bit because it deals with promises, it can even hijack a bargain but its not granting them.

                        From a game mechanics view the spirits are not a Splat but Changelings and Vampires are.


                        [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HardcoreHannes View Post
                          If on the other hand you have a hair of the sleeper, you could borrow the sympathetic connection of the hair via Borrow Threads from the hair and use that connection to cast on the sleeper sympathetically. While doing so, you can also use the hair as a material sympathetic yantra while casting the spell.
                          So, this is a good idea, but I don't think that the hair really has a sympathetic connection to what it's being carried in. The principle is the right one: plant a connection so that you can acquire the desired sympathies: but this exact example wouldn't work for that.


                          I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
                          An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
                          Guanxi Explanations: 1, 2, 3.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Moinen View Post

                            Spirit has litterally 4 things in its purview: Essence, spirits, the Shadow, the Gauntlet. And a spell that specifically rises Rank and grants Numina to the spirits.
                            Fate has nothing about Changelings: Blessings, hexes, probability, fortune, oaths, promises, intentions, destiny. It can alter Changeling powers a bit because it deals with promises, it can even hijack a bargain but its not granting them.

                            From a game mechanics view the spirits are not a Splat but Changelings and Vampires are.
                            When you turn a person into ephemera, though, they don't become a spirit. They have no Rank, no essence pool, no dependency on it... Numina are expressions of a spirit's nature and Spirit lets you change that nature.

                            To give a person Numina, they need to be a spirit, and that just isn't a transformation without consequence.

                            Also, under what circumstances can, say, a Fate Making spell not make a bargain? If Changeling powers are magically empowered bargains, why can't a Fate master Make them?

                            Likewise, if undeath is in Death's purview, why can't a Moros just give themselves the powers of the undead?

                            This is a bad idea.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have to agree. Not about it necessarily being a bad idea, but because it doesn't make sense for the game.

                              You can certainly give a numina to a spirit, chain that spirit and force it to act on your behalf. But you can't attach a numina to yourself because they just don't work that way, any more than you can use Wondrous Machine to merge your hand with a gun.

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