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Antinomian Magic = 'Dealing with the Abyss'?

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  • Antinomian Magic = 'Dealing with the Abyss'?

    Does inviting Paradox into your spell as a Scelesti count as the Falling-level Act of Hubris 'dealing with the Abyss', or is that meant for even more severe acts, such as negotiating with the Old Man, etc?

    It seems strange that a Scelesti could become one of the Mad after casting 7 spells, assuming they were of average Wisdom when they became Scelesti (doubtful)

  • #2
    1E Rules:

    Soul-Shaking: Casting an antinomian spell forces an immediate degeneration check for mages with Wisdom 3 or more (roll 2 dice).
    Seems like a good place to put this would be that it's a sin for Understanding Level, but not Falling, which avoids the whole instant Scelesti->Mad fast track.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
      It seems strange that a Scelesti could become one of the Mad after casting 7 spells, assuming they were of average Wisdom when they became Scelesti (doubtful)
      Not sure if that was the author intent, but I could see an argument for it.

      You're basically just opening yourself up to the Abyss in a fairly uncontrolled manner; the use of legacies and Abyssal watchtowers at least somewhat mediates the madness. Being a successful Scelesti means managing your own degeneration, and clearly a lot of them do fail and go Mad.


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      • #4
        Just because you can invite Abyss to your spells doesn't mean you should invite it to all the spells.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by WHW View Post
          Just because you can invite Abyss to your spells doesn't mean you should invite it to all the spells.
          While true, I think the number you can add it to before being rendered Mad is probably intended to be higher than 7-10.
          Especially since in 1E, you couldn't drop below Wisdom 2 from it.

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          • #6
            Maybe, depending on the level of Scelesti initiation (I recall there are 3 'degrees' of Scelesti), you're "inured" to inviting paradox, meaning it's never a Hubris act to do this.


            Historian ~ www.cronistasdastrevasbr.com

            I currently ST a... MtAW 2e campaign called "Axis Mundi - Si Vis Pacem"

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            • #7
              Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
              Especially since in 1E, you couldn't drop below Wisdom 2 from it.
              Yeah, but the system worked differently. You could only go Mad from the very worst atrocities or stealing someones soul. 2e folds in a few of the higher sins into Falling. The 1e core had casual murder as a Wisdom 2 sin and that would seem to come under Falling.


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              • #8
                Wouldn't inuring yourself to a spell make this irrelevant? I don't remember the wording, but didn't inure made you flat out never lose wisdom from a Spell X?

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                • #9
                  Also, Act of Hubris is not automatic dropping of Wisdom - there are also 'STs factors' and using AoH on Virtue of your character, both can give you +1 bonus to roll, making dicepools 2-3 - and by this 'rather should pass' kind a roll. I really think that most Scelesti see their usage of Abyssal magic as 'necessary' by their Virtue or other 'redeeming factors'.


                  My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                  LGBT+ through Ages
                  LGBT+ in CoD games

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                  • #10
                    Wisdom is about thinking things through and just like with murder you could possibly lift dealing with Abyss from Falling to Understanding if you know what your doing and what are the consequences of your actions.


                    [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by WHW View Post
                      Wouldn't inuring yourself to a spell make this irrelevant? I don't remember the wording, but didn't inure made you flat out never lose wisdom from a Spell X?

                      Yeah, but, like I said, it might depend on how much you're in deep with the whole Scelestus thing. If you're an occasional user of antinomian magic, well, you should be losing wisdom. Otoh, if you're serious about becoming a full-blown abyssal mage, you're likely joining a Scelestus legacy and going through all three stages, getting your own abyssal Ziggurat. By then, I believe that dabbling in antinomian magic won't affect your wisdom anymore. [Not that I believe it'll be any higher than, say, 3].


                      Historian ~ www.cronistasdastrevasbr.com

                      I currently ST a... MtAW 2e campaign called "Axis Mundi - Si Vis Pacem"

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                      • #12
                        Good insights, all. Some of those extra factors are worth considering, too.

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                        • #13
                          What I meant is:

                          You like to cast Fireball. You Fireballed a baddie. You also Fireballed a kitten. This made you lose a Wisdom point. You decided to say "Fireballs before kittens" and Inured yourself to Fireballing. No matter what you do, Fireball won't provoke Wisdom loses. Fireball 100000 kittens? No Wisdom loss.
                          This would mean that if you want to keep healthy Wisdom as a Scelestus, you need to pick some favorite, signature spells and stick to them when it comes to abyss-ing. Which is good. Anything that makes create spellcasting patterns and make them focus on a few options at a time is good.

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                          • #14
                            You could always decide that, after a certain level of exposure, the Scelestus has habituated to the toll such magic places upon their soul. The Acts of Hubris list is, after all, meant to be adaptable and, indeed, I would say that even for the same character, the same act may not be an Act of Hubris forever. The Mage's soul becomes scarred; the wounds no longer cut as deep. Eventually, those acts of evil push you to a place where you sit comfortably.

                            Even if the Mage core only divides morality into three categories, you don't have to. You can still distinguish between 4 and 5 dots on the moral scale and use the sections as guidelines for the sort of Mage that would be in them.

                            Suddenly, I have an urge to monkey with that.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                              You could always decide that, after a certain level of exposure, the Scelestus has habituated to the toll such magic places upon their soul. The Acts of Hubris list is, after all, meant to be adaptable and, indeed, I would say that even for the same character, the same act may not be an Act of Hubris forever. The Mage's soul becomes scarred; the wounds no longer cut as deep. Eventually, those acts of evil push you to a place where you sit comfortably.

                              Even if the Mage core only divides morality into three categories, you don't have to. You can still distinguish between 4 and 5 dots on the moral scale and use the sections as guidelines for the sort of Mage that would be in them.

                              Suddenly, I have an urge to monkey with that.
                              I'd be interested in the results if you do.

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