​Panscrypias and Keepers of the Word as Dragon Parts

[21C Hermit]

Hm. That's... Unexpected. Now that you mention it, though, I never did actually notice how incongruous the inclusion of dragons in the symbolism of Atlantis was. It wasn't something I questioned when the book treated the Fall as literal history but, when it's a metaphor cobbled together from borrowed Classical philosophy and mythology, dragons don't really "fit" anywhere.

Even more noticeable, none of the mythologies they draw upon view dragons favourably. Vritra, Tiamat, Typhon...

That's going in my "Things to mull" pile.

And I thought mages using the dragon imagery was an allusion to the Asian dragons, who are dangerous but still divine beings, where Hellenistic mages used the Astral to communicate with their Asian counterparts. How naive I was.

This thread is giving me the shudders.

By the way, didn't Dave also mention that the 2E Tremere would be more like a separate template, much like the Pure are to the Forsaken, or am I dreaming it up in feverish excitement?

[Axelgear]

You want disquieting? I'll give you disquieting.

Where exactly did you think the whole Dragon symbolism motif came from, anyway?

(That's right! The Diamond got it from the Tremere!)

Hm. That's... Unexpected. Now that you mention it, though, I never did actually notice how incongruous the inclusion of dragons in the symbolism of Atlantis was. It wasn't something I questioned when the book treated the Fall as literal history but, when it's a metaphor cobbled together from borrowed Classical philosophy and mythology, dragons don't really "fit" anywhere.

Even more noticeable, none of the mythologies they draw upon view dragons favourably. Vritra, Tiamat, Typhon...

That's going in my "Things to mull" pile.

[Mrmdubois]

The Keepers would be the Wings because of the two they're the most expansive, and at least on the surface we're the most similar to the Mysterium as it is today.

[wyrdhamster]

I suspect the Keepers were the original Wings of the Dragon, with the Pancryptias possibly being the Shadow of the Dragon or some such.

Reading today about Egregore ( that was Panscryptias invention ) I would rather point to them being Wing. But for me, both Panscryptias and Keepers do not work with Wing symbology - it does have sense after change in to Mysterium.

Phrases: “I’m a member of the Mysterium!” More subtle, the character learns that working wing into conversation marks him as a member of the order: “I do love to see birds take wing, don’t you?”

[Mrmdubois]

They would only know that Tremere were once considered the Blood of the Dragon until their heresy was discovered and they were renounced. Now they're seeking the "true" Blood of the Dragon, but that's just propaganda because they probably already found it in the Tremere hence why the prophecies seem to keep making veiled references to them.

What I'm saying is that public opinion is more mutable than time and politicians like the SL mold it all the time.

[wyrdhamster]

Tremere would still work as the Blood of the Dragon, heck they made up the dragon imagery, and there's a good chance they claimed to be that. The sidebar even mentions that Prophecies say the Blood of the Dragon are still out there as a sixth Order hidden in the shadows. That sounds like the Tremere to me. Since the Tremere were exposed the SL have gone back and either edited, denied or destroyed those things that might have backed up the Tremere claim which is why they now have multiple theories and most of their info is apocrypha. Plus you say it would be too big a blow to the SL politically, but I say that there is a masterful PR legacy that could make all of that go away: Logophages.

But we ( as modern day Awakened ) KNOW that Tremere were Sixth Order. There are Mysterium ( previous Keepers of Words ) records on this. Heck, we can have Time mages touch some medival armor and SEE how in 1099 on Antioch Convocation Tremere were declared worst type of Left Handed.

If Tremere even once were declared Blood of Dragon, this event would be know to any Diamond members from then on. OR Tremere never where officially declared Blood of Dragon - only plotting to be it, in their secret circles when they consumed next Reapers on their lists. But if they were never official Blood of Dragon, they would use other title in their Dragon Symbology, publicly - it's their that introduced it in the first place.

[Mrmdubois]

Tremere would still work as the Blood of the Dragon, heck they made up the dragon imagery, and there's a good chance they claimed to be that. The sidebar even mentions that Prophecies say the Blood of the Dragon are still out there as a sixth Order hidden in the shadows. That sounds like the Tremere to me. Since the Tremere were exposed the SL have gone back and either edited, denied or destroyed those things that might have backed up the Tremere claim which is why they now have multiple theories and most of their info is apocrypha. Plus you say it would be too big a blow to the SL politically, but I say that there is a masterful PR legacy that could make all of that go away: Logophages.

[wyrdhamster]

To ease discussion, Blood of the Dragon sidebar from Silver Ladder book.

The Blood of the Dragon
When the order gives public talks about reviving an Atlantean state, it usually leaves out one important ancient position: the monarch. Legends say Atlantis had kings and queens who ruled all the orders, though scholars sometimes postulate that the royal “Blood of the Dragon” were only ceremonial overlords, objects of devotion who left governance to other mages. Monarchy is an unpopular concept in the modern age, so théarchs often avoid discussing it at all, but not all of them personally object to reviving the royal line — provided they could find its heirs.


Of all the orders, the Ladder knows the most about the Blood of the Dragon, but even its knowledge is filled with apocrypha. Many believe the royal line died with Atlantis. Nobles stayed with their sinking towers or met their end by Exarch treachery. Some say the Blood are the Exarchs, that the royal house betrayed humanity, but the order dislikes the implications of this story because it calls Atlantis’ virtues into question. A more positive spin says the Oracles are five siblings of the Blood who have vowed to save the human race. The Merovingian Proximi (see pp. 66–68) claimed they had the Dragon’s Blood, but the Ladder doesn’t believe them.

Prophecies say the Blood of the Dragon still walk the world as a sixth order, hiddenin the shadows of the others. Princes monitor the world’s Consilii, waiting for the day that mages prove themselves worthy. They study the secret gifts of the Dragon’s Blood — and perhaps they guard a final Watchtower of ultimate Mysteries.

With the bold statements in 8^th Century of Tremere when they join as Order and connection to Final Watchtower – I COULD see Tremere saying that they are Blood of Dragon. But then their heretical bend uncovered In 1099 would mean so much blow to Silver Ladder forcing this idea, that Tearchs would not recover from this as ‘political visionary of Diamond’. Then I would probably point Tremere as Soul of Dragon – pointing new direction in Middle Ages for whole Diamond and connected to finding their Final Watchtower – but not making claims as large as Blood of Dragon themselves.

Interesting Fact: Numa and whole The Sanguine Laurel cabal from Boston setting are claiming they are Blood of Dragon, hailing from the Atlantis itself.

[blackheartz]

Keepers sounds cooler than Mysterium, from what I see.
Also, I really want that Tremere-Gnosis-Thing to be finally out :<.

I agree, Dave please give us the new Tremere, its been almost a year since you first spoiled that!!

[WHW]

Keepers sounds cooler than Mysterium, from what I see.
Also, I really want that Tremere-Gnosis-Thing to be finally out :<.

[nofather]

I dunno, it's just a bit too close to real life Nazi conspiracy for my liking.

It does sound like it gave the Orders some motivation.

I can't blame them for claiming it was some mythical Oracles and not reapers. They'd hardly want to advertise it.

[Michael]

You don't like an Order of proximi trying to get their blood across the world and extinguish the Sleeper?

That'd be fine, but the references to the Blood of the Dragon are largely as a positive thing that no longer exists. There are even suggestions that the difference between the Exarchs and the Oracles is that the latter are the true noblility.

I dunno, it's just a bit too close to real life Nazi conspiracy for my liking.

They weren't nobility, they were the priests.

In 1e 'The Blood of the Dragon' are referenced in a couple of places as the possible name of the Atlantean Noblility.

[Axelgear]

Priest-kings. They took the idea from Plato, who wanted a noble caste who believed wholeheartedly that working for the common folk was their natural role and duty, and to have them see this as a noble burden rather than a source of personal privilege.

[ArcaneArts]

I prefer that to it being the Atlantean nobility.

They weren't nobility, they were the priests.

[nofather]

You don't like an Order of proximi trying to get their blood across the world and extinguish the Sleeper?