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Dark Eras: Mutapa Kingdom

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  • #16
    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    I hope we get a good glimpse of Mutapa Mages - an early description of the setting made it sound a bit like it would be Portuguese Mages vs African Mummies, but obviously people Awaken everywhere, so we'll hopefully see Awakened Culture in the Empire too.
    No, it's Portugese mages and mummies vs African mages sometimes with and sometimes vs African mummies.

    The proper natives are the mutapan mages. All mummies are foreigners, after all, even if some of them have been around for centuries while others are newcomers. Mutapa is a long, long way from Irem.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
      I feel like that presupposes that the Mutapa Mages couldn't organize in some other way. The idea that there must be conflict as opposed to civilization amongst African Mages has some very ugly and unfortunate racial implications to it.
      What I was saying with IndoEuropean cultures is that Diamond Orders have origin in Alexander's and Roman Empire, both terrains and mentality - I think that saying they have strong colonialism and conquest overtones is understatement here. It's also point to the things like original Diamond hailing from territory from India to Europe - if there were no longer contacts with cultures of those terrains, they will not be Diamond Orders members before mass European ( or Indian ) colonization.

      Saying otherwise is like saying that Native Americans or Eskimos people who Awakened were part of Diamond Orders before being 'found' by white people. Which was marked possible in 1E, but in Mage 2E history is not true, with Diamond firm creation in one point of time - closest would that non-IndoEuropean cultures were having their own Darshanas and Great Cults - but for the Diamond they are all still technically Nameless Orders. Because Awakened outside Diamond, Pentacle and Seers are Nameless to any mage in those. So any local cult of those Awakened is nothing more than Nameless Order, however great spanning it would be.

      Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
      There is no good reason that African Mage culture couldn't develop in a different direction than European Mage culture, only for the two to merge at a later date.
      African mages can have their own Great Cults or only smaller Darshanas cults - in the end, all those groups are still Nameless Orders to Diamond.

      Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
      While I doubt it was your intention, the way you've worded this implies that Indo-European culture is the be-all and end-all of Mage culture and is fairly dismissive of anyone outside of that region/tradition.
      It's not me that are dissmissive - it's Diamond Orders position of past that is. For them, if you did not seen 'we are all descendent of our glorious Atlantis' you are barbarian. Just read Secrets of the Ruined Temple on this. Or see why Free Council come to being in the first place - there were thousands mages that were rejected by Diamond only because they not followed 'Atlantis interpretations' of their home cultures.

      Remember, mages are '1% monsters', elite of humanity of their time - and Diamond only reflected very ideas those elite had. They are dismissive because they were made mages of people that were fairly dismissive ( i.e. white colonialist of previous eras ).
      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-07-2017, 04:06 PM.


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      • #18
        Another thing I get to when thinking over Africa? topic - Once Diamond Order get to Africa Interior ( probably by Mutapa Empire court ) they will ( slowly ) spread over rest of continent. One local converted mentor will teach two natives students and all that. Then one student half of continent to Garamanteans in Libia starting Diamond there ( with local people face ), second student went to check Mysteries of nearby Congo, converting Awakened there. From those apprenticeship chains, in a time of century, we have most of Africa with 'flames of civilization' some Silver Ladder would say ( and rest simply call Diamond Outposts ), but still overwhelmed by hundreds of so called Nameless Orders. It's even ironic where in Europe Nameless are small percentage of mages compared to Diamond Orders, in Africa post Mutapa Kingdom it would be in reverse.

        Still, once white colonization will be in full swing of XVIII and XIX century, Diamond and Seers will probably come to be majority of local Awakened, with continuous indoctrination of both and steady income of both sects mages from Europe. But I think Nameless in Africa even then will be in ration like 60:40 for Diamond:Nameless - with Diamond rising with each generation in those general statistics. And at the start of 1900 we got local Free Council in to the mix...
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-07-2017, 05:42 PM.


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        • #19
          The Diamond Orders were born in the Alexandrian Empire. Rome actively makes itself a cultural heir of the Hellenistic world, so add its territory too to the expansion of the Diamond. Buddhism comes out of North India into China and beyond, so the Diamond easily expands throughout East Asia at the same time. Roman, Byzantine, and Coptic Christianity does the job of further expanding the Diamond (so that covers the rest of Europe and Russia), and once the Persian Empire is subsumed by the Caliphate, Islam does the same.

          That doesn't definitively answer the speed at which the Diamond incorporated the local Darshanas in sub-saharan Africa via Muslim (and later Christian) merchants and missionaries. So it's still very reasonable there would be a Mutapa Great Cult rather than the Diamond.


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          • #20
            Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
            The Diamond Orders were born in the Alexandrian Empire. Rome actively makes itself a cultural heir of the Hellenistic world, so add its territory too to the expansion of the Diamond. Buddhism comes out of North India into China and beyond, so the Diamond easily expands throughout East Asia at the same time. Roman, Byzantine, and Coptic Christianity does the job of further expanding the Diamond (so that covers the rest of Europe and Russia), and once the Persian Empire is subsumed by the Caliphate, Islam does the same.
            Nice sum up of Diamond spread, I thought exactly the same thing on Orders expansion history.

            Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
            That doesn't definitively answer the speed at which the Diamond incorporated the local Darshanas in sub-saharan Africa via Muslim (and later Christian) merchants and missionaries. So it's still very reasonable there would be a Mutapa Great Cult rather than the Diamond.
            I was marking my text on post Mutapa Empire Diamond spread. We both agreeing on that Mutapa would have it's own Great Cult thing - I only mark that once Diamond penetrate this kingdom, he will spread all over Africa. Maybe more slowly than in other parts of the world, with much more larger Nameless population - but surely continent will have Diamond outposts before massive European colonization begun.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

              What I was saying with IndoEuropean cultures is that Diamond Orders have origin in Alexander's and Roman Empire, both terrains and mentality - I think that saying they have strong colonialism and conquest overtones is understatement here. It's also point to the things like original Diamond hailing from territory from India to Europe - if there were no longer contacts with cultures of those terrains, they will not be Diamond Orders members before mass European ( or Indian ) colonization.

              Saying otherwise is like saying that Native Americans or Eskimos people who Awakened were part of Diamond Orders before being 'found' by white people. Which was marked possible in 1E, but in Mage 2E history is not true, with Diamond firm creation in one point of time - closest would that non-IndoEuropean cultures were having their own Darshanas and Great Cults - but for the Diamond they are all still technically Nameless Orders. Because Awakened outside Diamond, Pentacle and Seers are Nameless to any mage in those. So any local cult of those Awakened is nothing more than Nameless Order, however great spanning it would be.



              African mages can have their own Great Cults or only smaller Darshanas cults - in the end, all those groups are still Nameless Orders to Diamond.



              It's not me that are dissmissive - it's Diamond Orders position of past that is. For them, if you did not seen 'we are all descendent of our glorious Atlantis' you are barbarian. Just read Secrets of the Ruined Temple on this. Or see why Free Council come to being in the first place - there were thousands mages that were rejected by Diamond only because they not followed 'Atlantis interpretations' of their home cultures.

              Remember, mages are '1% monsters', elite of humanity of their time - and Diamond only reflected very ideas those elite had. They are dismissive because they were made mages of people that were fairly dismissive ( i.e. white colonialist of previous eras ).

              Okay, I don't disagree with you on any of this. Looking back at your post, I think I was tired and misinterpreted some of it. I thought at the time that the language was downplaying the importance of Mutapa's indigenous orders, but I don't get that feeling now. My bad.


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