Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Forces Flight slower that running?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Forces Flight slower that running?

    This is awakening in the new second edition, and my character just got forces 4. I tried using flight in game and spent the extra reach for true flight

    +1 Reach: The subject flies fluid and free. She instinctively
    creates the telekinetic force as she maneuvers in midair, granting
    her incredible speed and maneuverability. The subject gains
    an air Speed equal to the mage’s Gnosis + the spell’s Potency.
    While airborne she can make a Dexterity + Athletics roll to avoid
    obstacles, gains her normal Defense against attacks, and can fly
    without exhausting herself as she would by running.

    So it says air speed is Gnosis + Potency. My Gnosis is 3 so for four dice I could get it up to a speed of 5. That is still slower than a pretty typical human but the description specifically calls it "incredible speed and maneuverability. How does this work? My GM ruled that I had it was a typo, and that I was very manuverable while moving about 7 miles an hour. Kinda underwhelmming for Forces 4.

    Thanks!

  • #2
    Speed is rarely used in games, as far as I can tell, and this spell probably wasn't playtested with speed in mind. So often, when Speed is thrown around in the books, it actually doesn't make sense. There was a similar problem with Quicken Corpse spell, which claimed that it's reach option made zombies fast and dangerous...but actual numbers made it so that these dangerous, combat zombies could be outmanuevered by a casually moving around Little Baby or a wheelchair bound person. My advice? Make it Gnosis+Potency+flatnumber.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by qsnodgrass View Post
      How does this work?
      Gnosis + Potency in free movement is markedly more speedy and maneuverable than Potency in directed movement, particularly given that you're getting omnidirectional movement with no bodily fatigue.

      If you want generalized "incredible speed," Velocity Control is right there in the preceding rank.

      Originally posted by WHW View Post
      There was a similar problem with Quicken Corpse spell, which claimed that it's reach option made zombies fast and dangerous
      Compared to shambling idiot corpses. "Fast and dangerous" is not what "suitable for combat" means.
      Last edited by Satchel; 02-09-2017, 03:10 AM.


      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

      Comment


      • #4
        Velocity Control is exactly what I ended up doing, it was just time consuming, and then an additional spell that I needed to hang, maintain, and possibly pull paradox on (chance die). It just didn't make sense to me that the description would call walking speed 5 "indredible speed" And at adept level where you could throw ligtning, flying at the speed of seniors doing laps at the mall seems a bit sad.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by qsnodgrass View Post
          It just didn't make sense to me that the description would call walking speed 5 "indredible speed"
          Standard climbing speed amounts to a little over Speed 3. Standard flying speed amounts to a little under Speed 0.

          You want a workable interpretation that might help? "Gains an air Speed" may well mean "gains a flight-based species factor for their Speed." Add your Strength and Dexterity to the mix.

          Also? This is a Duration-primary spell that grants an entire new mode of movement. If you're only putting in enough effort to drop your dicepool by four then you're obviously not going to get the most out of it. Ritual-cast. Use a rote. Get help from other Adepts. Burn precious resources or start painting runes on yourself (in blood, if necessary). Efficient speedy flight requires groundwork.

          And at adept level where you could throw ligtning, flying at the speed of seniors doing laps at the mall seems a bit sad.
          It's levitation magic that doesn't rely on a predefined area. Moving faster than a crawling toddler is already extra.


          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

          Comment


          • #6
            "Speed 1" wasn't also what "suitable for combat" meant, which is why it was errated. Ditto for exceptional physical prowess of Speed 3. These things got errated appropiately to Speed 6 and Speed 8. So unless you want to make your incredible flying speed less than a zombie movement rate, give the spell a basic speed factor of 3.

            Comment


            • #7
              Or maybe treat it as acceleration? Like in vehicles?


              [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by qsnodgrass View Post
                Velocity Control is exactly what I ended up doing, it was just time consuming, and then an additional spell that I needed to hang, maintain, and possibly pull paradox on (chance die).
                Perspective: spending 1 more turn casting and using up another spell slot is a pretty good price for Literal Superman Flight. You could also combine the two spells.


                2E Legacy Updates
                Brotherhood of the Demon Wind
                Choir of Hashmallim (plus extra Summoning content)
                Storm Keepers

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by qsnodgrass View Post
                  Velocity Control is exactly what I ended up doing, it was just time consuming, and then an additional spell that I needed to hang, maintain, and possibly pull paradox on (chance die).
                  At Gnosis 3, why aren't you combining them?
                  Regardless, I agree that the speed is underwhleming and I would go with Satchel's suggestion to treat it as a species factor.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Can somebody show an example of how you combine VC and levitation pls? Gnosis 3, Forces 4 Mage requiring a potency 3 levitation & VC spell (to give speed 48?).

                    I'll try work it out myself first: So base pool is Gnosis (3) + lowest arcana (3) - 2 for 2nd spell: 4, say he can manage +8 with 3 yantras and +5 from extra ritual casting gives 17 dice. He has 2 reach for levitation and 1 reach for VC, he spends 1 reach on leviation for advanced duration giving him a base duration of 1 month and a 2nd to give him free flight from the spell. He spends his 1 reach on VC for advanced duration also which gives him a base duration of scene but a base potency of 4 (higher cos i forgot about free factors). He needs -4 for a potency 3 levitation and -6 for a month duration on VC leaving him a total dicepool of 7?

                    He can afford another -4 of spell factors and still has willpower to spend for even more.

                    This gives him a speed 96 when flying for 1 month using only 1 spell slot?

                    Is this how it works? I dont quite understand this line ""> Reach to alter spell factors applies to all spells, but additional Reach effects in a spell’s listing must be bought separately."
                    I assume it means i can spend 1 reach to alter 2 spells primary factor from duration to potency
                    , but if i have 2 spells one with potency and one with duration and spend 1 reach to alter primary factors it it wont swap both them? I get to choose not to swap one?
                    Last edited by totalgit; 02-11-2017, 05:00 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      All Primary does is grant a free factor boost. Use 1 Reach to move them both to Advanced Duration and then use dice penalties to increase the Duration of the Potency Primary spell.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                        Is this how it works? I dont quite understand this line ""> Reach to alter spell factors applies to all spells, but additional Reach effects in a spell’s listing must be bought separately."
                        I assume it means i can spend 1 reach to alter 2 spells primary factor from duration to potency
                        , but if i have 2 spells one with potency and one with duration and spend 1 reach to alter primary factors it it wont swap both them? I get to choose not to swap one?
                        That line is talking about extra effects in the spell's description, like Levitation's free-flight option, which only gets you that option, without a free option from the other spells, if they have any.

                        "Lowest Arcanum" is Forces, so that's 4, giving you 1 more in the pool than you listed.

                        But the biggest problem is that Velocity Control doesn't give you a Speed of 96, it gives you a speed of 96. That capitalisation there means that you don't have a cool ability to go up to that speed, it means you uncontrollably slam into the nearest wall due to accellerating yourself to that speed instantly.
                        Well, you have Levitation, so you could roll to maneuver or of course start by going straight up, but the problem remains that it's not a bonus to the Speed trait, but rather an increase in the speed you are moving at, meaning you can't stop unless you stop the spell.

                        Those were the problems, now for some suggested solutions!
                        1)
                        Instead of Velocity Control, Life 3: Honing the Form to boost Dex or Strength, or some Creative Thaumaturgy at the same level to boost the Speed trait, which you combine with Levitation. Speeds 8 to 10 should be reachable with your listed dicepool.

                        2)
                        On the other hand, if your Storyteller is ok with it, add to Levitation something like "+1 Reach: By spending a point of Mana, the Mage may increase the target's Speed by her dots in Forces "

                        3)
                        Alternatively! You have a nice dicepool, up that Potency so you get more Speed with just Levitation?
                        3.1) While Levitating, if you need to get somewhere fast, go up a bit, and actually cast Velocity Control to propel yourself at unreasonable speeds for a few turns (Rote Velocity Control maybe for this)
                        If you have a modest Speed 8 with Levitation (at Gnosis 3, it takes you a -8 to dicepool to get 8), and cast Velocity Control as a Rote with a pool of 11 (Gnosis3+Forces4+Mudra4, success virtually guaranteed) that's Potency 4, meaning a Speed of 56, which is 201km/h, or 124mph for a turn. Or a Scene if you spend on of your free reaches for Advanced Duration.
                        Last edited by Aeryes; 02-11-2017, 12:39 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                          Can somebody show an example of how you combine VC and levitation pls? Gnosis 3, Forces 4 Mage requiring a potency 3 levitation & VC spell (to give speed 48?).

                          I'll try work it out myself first: So base pool is Gnosis (3) + lowest arcana (3) - 2 for 2nd spell: 4,
                          To start with, you use the lowest Arcanum that the mage has, not of the component spells. Since this mage has Forces 4, the base pool is Gnosis (3) + Forces (4) - 2 (second spell) for a base of 5.

                          Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                          say he can manage +8 with 3 yantras and +5 from extra ritual casting gives 17 dice.
                          First, you can only gain up to a max of +5 (after negating penalties) to your pool from all sources (or is this from Yantras only? Not actually 100% on this). So we'll say this is a potential +13. Also, +8 from 3 yantras with no rote mudras is kinda difficult as most yantras are a +1 or +2. But let's say this mage has a +4 Persona Yantra and has two other +2. As for the +5 from ritual casting, this will require 6 hours of casting at Gnosis 3, but still doable.

                          Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                          He has 2 reach for levitation and 1 reach for VC,
                          So the book is a little unclear on this, but what I think is supposed to happen is you determine free Reach based on the highest rated spell, since you apply Reach to spell factors on everything at once. As such, only 1 free reach for everything. Even if you get it from each (which I really doubt), you accidentally flipped them: 1 free reach for levitation and 2 for Velocity Control.

                          Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                          he spends 1 reach on leviation for advanced duration giving him a base duration of 1 month and a 2nd to give him free flight from the spell. [He spends his 1 reach on VC for advanced duration also which gives him a base duration of scene but a base potency of 4 (higher cos i forgot about free factors). He needs -4 for a potency 3 levitation and -6 for a month duration on VC leaving him a total dicepool of 7?
                          Combined spell factors... Yeah, this is unclear (unless there's been something from clarified by the Devs that I missed), but there are a few schools of thought: if the primary spell factors are different, you get the free bump in both (yay!), or you (or the GM) pick one (still not bad), or determine as appropriate for the spell, like you would for an Improvised Spell. Me, personally, I like that last one as it seems the most likely/least broken, but we'll look at all three cases: dual Primary, Duration Primary, and Potency Primary. All cases have spent the single free reach on having flight from the Levitation spell.

                          Dual Primary
                          So, you have a rating of 4, so that means three free steps in Duration and a base Potency of 4. So before additional Reaches are spent, we are looking at a Speed of 112 ((Gnosis 3 + Potency 4) x 2^4 from VC), or about 134.4 kph / 84 mph. Yikes. This will last 5 Turns. BUT we want advanced Duration, so 1 Reach is spent and we jump to Advanced Duration, so the spell now lasts a month. And no die penalty for increasing spell factors. Goddamn.

                          Duration Primary
                          Once again, a rating of 4 is now applied to Duration, and we are doing the Reach for Advanced Duration, so the spell, once again, lasts a month. However, right now it only gives you a Speed of 8 ((Gnosis 3 + Potency 1) x2 from VC). If we want a Speed of 48 from a Potency of 3, we have to take a -4 to the roll. Now we have a spell that lasts one month and gives us a Speed of 48, or about 57.6 kph / 36 mph. If we want the same as above, we need to take a -6 for Potency 4 and once again we have a speed of 112.

                          Potency Primary
                          Last, but not least, the rating of 4 is now applied to Potency. We spend the Reach for Advanced Duration, and the spell will last for a scene and give us a speed of 112. Once again, a -6 will bring us up to a month, and we have our Superman flight spell.


                          So, if we have Dual Primary, you get a kinda crazy month-long flight spell that only costs one extra Reach, whose 2 Paradox dice can easily be negated by 2 Mana spent. If the Primary spell factor bump only applies to one of the two, then you get the same spell for a -6 to your roll.

                          With our initial pool of 5 dice and the Dual Primary effect, you could probably pull it off with no Yantras, but hey, we're ritual casting, so let's assume a nice easy +5 from various Yantras (3 of them) and bam, we're looking at ten dice. Heck, swap one of those Yantras for your dedicated tool, spend two extra hours casting to make up the +2, and you don't even to spend Mana to reduce the Paradox to a chance die. Unless you have my luck, this spell is probably going off as intended and we are set for transportation for the next month. Heck, if we're lucky, or have both as Praxes, there is a decent chance of an Exceptional Success; Speed of 256 anybody? (might want to start worrying about G-forces at this point, but I would say 1 Mana for the Forces 4 Attainment for Environmental Immunity should cover that; on an unrelated note Potency 7 and Gnosis 3 would let you hit Mach 1 )

                          With either of the singular Primary options, our odds don't look quite as nice, but hey, still not too bad. Let's go with the nice, easy +5 across 3 Yantras and we're now looking at rolling 4 dice. Odds are in our favor, but hey, better safe than sorry, so spend the extra five hours for a +5 bonus and we've got nine dice. 2 Mana to negate the Paradox, and we're doing pretty good.

                          I could also see Mrmdubois's method making sense: the spells must share their Primary Spell Factor, so you have to spend a Reach to move one of them so that they match.

                          ...I actually really like that. Huh. Something for me to chew on.

                          Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                          Is this how it works? I dont quite understand this line ">Reach to alter spell factors applies to all spells, but additional Reach effects in a spell’s listing must be bought separately."

                          I assume it means i can spend 1 reach to alter 2 spells primary factor from duration to potency, but if i have 2 spells one with potency and one with duration and spend 1 reach to alter primary factors it it wont swap both them? I get to choose not to swap one?
                          Again, swapping spell factors in a combined spell with component spells of differing primary spell factors is unclear. In this situation, I would ask your GM, at least until we hear something from a Dev. But what this mostly means is that Reach spent to move spell factors to Advanced apply to all spells, hence only needing one Reach to move up to Advanced Duration.

                          EDIT:
                          Originally posted by Aeryes View Post
                          But the biggest problem is that Velocity Control doesn't give you a Speed of 96, it gives you a speed of 96. That capitalisation there means that you don't have a cool ability to go up to that speed, it means you uncontrollably slam into the nearest wall due to accellerating yourself to that speed instantly.
                          Well, you have Levitation, so you could roll to maneuver or of course start by going straight up, but the problem remains that it's not a bonus to the Speed trait, but rather an increase in the speed you are moving at, meaning you can't stop unless you stop the spell.
                          Huh. Well I'll be damned. That's a really good point. As a GM, I'd say that you'd some degree of control, but it'd be freaking hard as your "increments" of Speed would be larger. Valid point though!

                          Originally posted by Aeryes View Post
                          Those were the problems, now for some suggested solutions!
                          1)
                          Instead of Velocity Control, Life 3: Honing the Form to boost Dex or Strength, or some Creative Thaumaturgy at the same level to boost the Speed trait, which you combine with Levitation. Speeds 8 to 10 should be reachable with your listed dicepool.
                          Life to boost your flight speed from a Forces spell? That doesn't sound quite right...
                          Last edited by ffanxii4ever; 02-11-2017, 12:52 PM. Reason: Aeryes replied while I was typing...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I would add "additional" before "air Speed" because the Reach says you gain an air speed that you already have to start with. In other words, the base spell grants you Gnosis + spell Potency in air Speed so if you gain Gnosis + spell Potency in air Speed for the Reach then your total should be double Gnosis and spell Potency. If Gnosis + Potency gets you to 5 then with Reach you are up to Speed 10 before using other spells. Is that fast enough for you?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Aeryes View Post
                              But the biggest problem is that Velocity Control doesn't give you a Speed of 96, it gives you a speed of 96. That capitalisation there means that you don't have a cool ability to go up to that speed, it means you uncontrollably slam into the nearest wall due to accellerating yourself to that speed instantly.
                              Well, you have Levitation, so you could roll to maneuver or of course start by going straight up, but the problem remains that it's not a bonus to the Speed trait, but rather an increase in the speed you are moving at, meaning you can't stop unless you stop the spell.
                              You would still have granular control (though it would take some getting used to), because while VC is flat multiplicative there's no reason you can't factor that multiple into your base speed decisions; Levitation is what determines your speed, and Levitation can be freely controlled.

                              If you really want to roleplay learning to control your flight speed through VC (or even just flat walking speed) then you could have the Mage practice with ever increasing levels of potency until they get the hang of it, a la a superhero learning to use their newfound superspeed power in a comic book origin story. Or just throw in a Mind 1 or 2 spell to speed up the learning process.


                              Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy focusing on Mind and Forces

                              Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy focusing on Matter and Prime

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X