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Immortality and Legacies or Am I a Lich and if so what's your Problem?

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  • #16
    Maybe it's a self-correcting problem. Mages with Obsessions of extending their lifespan, then having an unlimited one ... once they achieve this, would become keenly aware of how killable they are. And this then can go in 2 ways:

    1) Paranoid defensive measures
    In this version the Mage invests ever more effort into not being killable, eventually withdrawing from pretty much everything. There could be a smattering of such Mages around the globe. Fun plotfodder.

    2) Paranoid offensive measures
    This version might be why nobody likes it when the newb Mage goes "maybe I could live a bit longer, right?" Because once they notice how eminently killable they are once functionally ageless, they could turn to paranoia of people trying to kill them. And preventing this preemptively. Meaning they have to be dealt with. The Mage Society at learge would have learned how these things go, and this is why they work to curb the enthusiasm for immortality in younglings.

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    • #17
      Honestly, I don't think it's anymore a problem than any other Obsession mages get up to. Which can be pretty nasty, admittedly, but there is nothing that unique about liches that

      The big issue we're dealing with is old, super powerful mages likely far stronger than others in the region, so likely less stop able than a non-long-lived mage. Social rules mean less when no one can enforce them. And history has shown that humans aren't always the most moral of creatures on their own. Being old and powerful isn't unique to liches, but it is fairly common.

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      • #18
        Immoral and powerful at least can be salvaged for antagonists. Moral and powerful are far more annoying, because you are gonna keep asking yourself "why my board of powerful and noble masters didn't solve all the problems that I want my players to solve", like we seen here quite a few times.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by WHW View Post
          Moral and powerful are far more annoying, because you are gonna keep asking yourself "why my board of powerful and noble masters didn't solve all the problems that I want my players to solve", like we seen here quite a few times.
          Morality isn't a binary option. A lot of the influence magi have over each other is extracted by doing favours for each other. Even a morally upstanding master has an angle.

          Plus, it's your players mystery. They get nothing from it if the Masters do it for them.


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          • #20
            Also, lets not forget that, just because someone is engaging in an Awakened taboo, doesn't mean they're not tapped for knowledge. The Mad are sometimes cultivated for their expertise, after all. The big thing we have to ask ourselves is how these guys relate to Mysteries. This has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with Mysteries.

            Seers and Banishers are enemies because these two want to either subvert mysteries for their gods or to destroy them, respectively. Its a war over resources. The Mad create problems for people around them and mess up other Mysteries for the sake of their Obsession-Faults. Reapers eat souls, which are kind of necessary not only for making more mages, but also the souls of mages. They don't kill anyone, they just effectively eat magic, a variation on Banishers. Scelesti work with the Abyss which messes up what kind of magic others can do, threatening mysteries once again.

            So, the question becomes, how do immortal mages threaten Mysteries?
            Last edited by MCN; 02-17-2017, 10:47 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
              Archmasters' peer pressure is aimed at not letting them interfere with one another's work using their world-breaking spells, not at turning up to Consilium and saying "you guys are meritocratic, right? Anyone else abe to cast a Dynamic spell? No? I'm in charge"

              After all, the Seer archmages do have command positions in the Pyramid. Other archmasters only go after them for breaking the Pax when they flagrantly cheat on behalf of their Ministry.

              No, the Silver law about the Pentacle's titles having a cap of Master is because of the *well documented and understood* tendency of Imperial wizards to treat everyone else like chesspieces at beat and raw quintessence at worst. After the first few hundred cases of an archmaster putting more priority on their lofty cosmic Obsessions than reality itself, the Pentacle wised up. No one driven enough to seek the Imperial Mysteries is your friend.

              The Silver Ladder just assumes that any archmage who does have it on her to act as a Sage toward lesser mages will do so by proxy or in disguise of being a master.
              I find it hard for the Pentacle to be able to stop an archmaster who wants to rule especially one who's focused in fate or mind. I mean I can understand why they would try to fight it just seems hard to believe they'd remotely succeed without intervention.

              Also, I doubt someone who keeps being ageless would be able to relate with people. That isn't to say they'd be inhuman just like someone who's lived too long to bother with most of the political events. There are life mages who can extend their age for quite a bit but that's quite a lot of focus on just keeping yourself alive longer.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                I find it hard for the Pentacle to be able to stop an archmaster who wants to rule especially one who's focused in fate or mind. I mean I can understand why they would try to fight it just seems hard to believe they'd remotely succeed without intervention.
                It's possible to kill an arch-master and while they're formidable opponents on any level trying to single-handedly maintain control of a restless group of Mages is a losing proposition, or it could just be more trouble than it's worth considering the goal of an arch-master is to Ascend not to lord it over a Consilium. They're totally expected to be there in the background manipulating events there's no stopping that, but openly ruling can be made to be not worth the effort.

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                • #23
                  I agree with the idea that it's pretty easy for a Mage to achieve functional immortality (i.e. Wolverine immortality) in the fact that there is real, currently existing life that is biologically immortal. Just use Life to continue healing your diseases. Just use Life to restore your degrading cells. Just use Mind to keep senility at bay. Of course, make sure you don't accidentally trigger a paradox that results in giving yourself incurable cancer OF THE ABYSS.

                  Becoming a Lich, or a Tremere, or whatever, isn't about immortality. It's about reliability. It's about power.

                  That's my two cents.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                    I find it hard for the Pentacle to be able to stop an archmaster who wants to rule especially one who's focused in fate or mind. I mean I can understand why they would try to fight it just seems hard to believe they'd remotely succeed without intervention.
                    I think you underestimate the power of a very pissed off Consilium. Archmages are powerful, but discretion is the better part of valor versus trying to claim a hoard of belligerent willworkers, even if you outclass any one of them individually.


                    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
                    Out of Nation from 5/22 to 5/29

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                    • #25
                      Alternatively, Geist presents the concept that powerful Ghosts are able to 'stop death' - and by extension, making you alive, because you are not dead - even if they can't quite heal what killed you. That's what makes Sin-Eaters. So a Master of Death could feasibly do this as well, pushing away his own death for decades. Possibly indefinitely.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RomulusGloriosus View Post
                        Alternatively, Geist presents the concept that powerful Ghosts are able to 'stop death' - and by extension, making you alive, because you are not dead - even if they can't quite heal what killed you. That's what makes Sin-Eaters. So a Master of Death could feasibly do this as well, pushing away his own death for decades. Possibly indefinitely.
                        Death 2, Shielding.

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                        • #27
                          The problem with "innocent" immortality is that the outset, it seems perfectly reasonable.
                          A 20-30-something year old Mage relinquishes control of a powerful indefinite anti-aging spell and rests easy knowing they'll be young and full of vim and vigor until they're killed.
                          More than enough time to do whatever he wants with his life.
                          And in many cases, this is exactly what they'll do. They'll pursue their Obsessions, live a full and fruitful life, then dispel their own spell and come to death with open arms.

                          However the Pentacle is old, and the wisdom passed down through centuries likely has plenty of horror stories about how the march of centuries warps the perspective of Mages.
                          Even if their method of immortality is not malicious, the long march of time will likely twist them just as much as the potential for Acts of Hubris does.
                          And when despite all your magical power you see another, ostensibly similar to you, but who looks at you as if you're an ant, hardly even there, can you trust them?

                          So really, the general objection to immortality by most Mages is not overly philosophical, it's practical.
                          They don't fully trust Mages who seek immortality, because despite all your innocent intentions you could eventually turn into an immortal Madman. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not ever. It's a possibility, a potential. Something they hope doesn't happen, but know from your interest, that it might.

                          Once bitten, twice shy.
                          And the Pentacle has been bitten a LOT.
                          Last edited by HerbertIsBestBert; 03-02-2017, 08:30 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by RomulusGloriosus View Post
                            Alternatively, Geist presents the concept that powerful Ghosts are able to 'stop death' - and by extension, making you alive, because you are not dead - even if they can't quite heal what killed you. That's what makes Sin-Eaters. So a Master of Death could feasibly do this as well, pushing away his own death for decades. Possibly indefinitely.
                            Certainly. Immortality is actually stupidly easy to get.

                            Of course, those kinds of immortality are also stupidly easy to dispel.


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.
                            Out of Nation from 5/22 to 5/29

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                              Certainly. Immortality is actually stupidly easy to get.

                              Of course, those kinds of immortality are also stupidly easy to dispel.
                              Exactly. Reliability and power. It's not about the immortality, it's about what you've got to do to make sure you can keep it.

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                              • #30
                                Ah, the unholy triangle of Accessibility, Reliability, and Morality/Acceptability. You can get two, but can't get one.


                                MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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