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Immortality and Legacies or Am I a Lich and if so what's your Problem?

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  • #61
    I suppose, but I think it would be rare and that's the kind of Mage who gets themselves killed or worse early on.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by RBAWintrow View Post
      You could do something like:

      False Reincarnation
      (Fate 5, Mind 5)
      Practice: Making
      Primary Factor: Duration
      Suggested Rote Skills: Academics, Persuasion, Occult

      Upon death you reincarnate as nearby as possible as a newborn with a Fate to Awaken and regain your memories.
      Contact with your Dedicated Tool triggers this Fate.
      This spell may only be used on the caster.

      +2 Reach: The spell's Duration is Lasting.

      Inspired by the "Reborn" from Immortals (page 135) and Cymbeline/Cxaxa Qherephis from Reign of the Exarchs (page 40).

      Heavy on the needed Arcana (two masteries and Gnosis 6). But if you're looking for non-evil, non-inhuman sort-of immortality this might be an option.
      It won't come up in a game though. When have you had the time to wait for your reincarnation to mature and awaken in a game? That's one hell of a time-skip.
      Still, it might give a character peace of mind knowing death is not the end, only an inconvenience.

      Non-evil? Non-inhuman?!?

      This is the god damn textbook definition of Hubris!

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Dusksage View Post


        Non-evil? Non-inhuman?!?

        This is the god damn textbook definition of Hubris!
        Well, it is pretty much the definition of hubris but I wouldn't really call it evil. It isn't like you're body snatching here, not quite anyways.

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        • #64
          I would argue the devil is in the details.

          If the Mage had the determination to imprint their memories onto the newborn immediately and had to suffer through growth and development all over again then it could be argued that the infant was never really a person and therefore not body snatching.

          But to have a person uniquely different from the Mage who cast the spell grow up with a fate they can't control to awaken and immediately gain the memories of some asshole while retaining their own memories, creating an instant identity crisis and potentially scaring them for life. That...that is just downright evil to me. Because how is that any different from doing that to just some poor random person on the street? Your still robbing someone of the chance for personal Awakening and then brainwashing them to suddenly have all of your memories and desires.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Dusksage View Post
            I would argue the devil is in the details.

            If the Mage had the determination to imprint their memories onto the newborn immediately and had to suffer through growth and development all over again then it could be argued that the infant was never really a person and therefore not body snatching.

            But to have a person uniquely different from the Mage who cast the spell grow up with a fate they can't control to awaken and immediately gain the memories of some asshole while retaining their own memories, creating an instant identity crisis and potentially scaring them for life. That...that is just downright evil to me. Because how is that any different from doing that to just some poor random person on the street? Your still robbing someone of the chance for personal Awakening and then brainwashing them to suddenly have all of your memories and desires.
            Like you said, the devils in the details, and going by the spell, the person was always you. Sure, you didn't know it was you when you were growing up, but as soon as you take hold of your Dedicated Tool you know what's what. Will it be a little shocking? Probably at first, but I don't see it as evil. This isn't some foreign entity taking claim of your mind and you would know it, this was more you regaining something you'd previously lost.

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            • #66
              If that were true then that would be fine (given one was willing to gloss over the implications about conflicting identities and the existential horror of identity.)

              But the spell is called False Reincarnation, not True Reincarnation. If a Mage can truly control how they reincarnate (if they even reincarnate) then is it right for them to decide who they will be in their next life? Especially if that person had dreams and aspirations beyond their past life's own worldly ambitions? And if they can't truly control how they reincarnate without Imperial Practices then what does that say about the life you forever altered just because you feared dying? Because you wanted your ambitions to pass on despite what the people of the future desires for themselves?

              This kind of logic is why Litchs are considered primarily Left-Handed. The desire to persist beyond death is increadably appealing but it's not a path to Wisdom, because on some level it's a deeply selfish one that lends the survival of the self to be superior to all other factors. And pared with a Mage's increadable power and very human flaws it can lead to some truly horrific tragedies. One of which, I will still argue, could be binding a future incarnation to the ghost of a dead Mage.
              Last edited by Dusksage; 03-12-2017, 08:43 AM. Reason: Polish

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              • #67
                This sounds like a good material for a character, PC or NPC.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Dusksage View Post
                  If that were true then that would be fine (given one was willing to gloss over the implications about conflicting identities and the existential horror of identity.)

                  But the spell is called False Reincarnation, not True Reincarnation. If a Mage can truly control how they reincarnate (if they even reincarnate) then is it right for them to decide who they will be in their next life? Especially if that person had dreams and aspirations beyond their past life's own worldly ambitions? And if they can't truly control how they reincarnate without Imperial Practices then what does that say about the life you forever altered just because you feared dying? Because you wanted your ambitions to pass on despite what the people of the future desires for themselves?

                  This kind of logic is why Litchs are considered primarily Left-Handed. The desire to persist beyond death is increadably appealing but it's not a path to Wisdom, because on some level it's a deeply selfish one that lends the survival of the self to be superior to all other factors. And pared with a Mage's increadable power and very human flaws it can lead to some truly horrific tragedies. One of which, I will still argue, could be binding a future incarnation to the ghost of a dead Mage.
                  It might be called False Reincarnation but there's not really anything false about its effects. It says what it does, and there's nothing wrong with those described effects. If it was meant to be a body snatch then the person who wrote it needs to detail it as such, but as written it's fine. If anything, the spell described should be called Forced Reincarnation.

                  And yes, I see no problem with them deciding who they are in their next life. And it isn't like they lose anything from they learned/gained from their new life before regaining their memories anyways. If they have dreams and aspirations before, they'll don't just lose that. They might make an informed decision about whether or not those particular aspirations still mean that much to them but that is normal. People are shaped by their experiences, and just because you suddenly recall experiences that you had previously forgotten doesn't devalue what you experienced before that point. It's like someone who has been stricken with amnesia suddenly remembering everything they had forgotten. Sure, they now have a lot more experience to pull from, but the time that they spent without their memories doesn't go away, it just adds on to who they are.

                  Magic generally does what you will it to do, barring paradox. If you can't control how it works without Archmastery and try to make a spell that does it then the spell will fail because you can't do that. If this spell isn't valid it simply won't work, and thus the whole discussion becomes moot. If it does work, then they can control it up to a point and it will work as the spell describes. So either the spell works as detailed, allowing you to reincarnate yourself after death, and use Fate to guide your Dedicated Tool/memories back to you, or the spell doesn't work. It's one or the other, and neither result is inherently evil.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by WHW View Post
                    This sounds like a good material for a character, PC or NPC.
                    All things considered, this has been a very fruitful argument. And while I still disagree with the point you're trying to make @Ashenrouge I feel that this may ultimately come down to a difference in philosophy. Which, honestly, like WHW said means this conversation alone will make great fodder for in game character discussions.

                    I'll rest my belief and reasoning on this: Is anything forced ever really a good thing? Can anyone truly say that they have the right to make the decision for how things should be and follow through with that decision with incredible power & influence when other individual's lives are on the line? Especially when this decision is one born of profound self-interest? I would say that forcing a decision upon another human being can only be a necessary evil, something done when the needs of society or the world are greater and something that should only be done sparingly or out of desperation. Never for a single individual's happiness. Even if that single individual is yourself.

                    But then again, I would probably be the Libertine Alchemist if this was an in game conversation. Trying to say that all you're really doing is passing on the Lead Coin to the next generation without their consent rather than paying it to free yourself from worldly suffering and want. That if you really wanted to give your future self the choice to continue on your life's work then why not make a Grimoire or Daimonomicon and just Fate 5 that to eventually be discovered by your future incarnation. Let them wonder and find inspiration form the Wise who blazed a path through the Lie before them. Give them a choice without the burden of a whole other life they never lived.
                    Last edited by Dusksage; 03-12-2017, 03:13 PM. Reason: Spellcheck

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Dusksage View Post

                      All things considered, this has been a very fruitful argument. And while I still disagree with the point you're trying to make @Ashenrouge I feel that this may ultimately come down to a difference in philosophy. Which, honestly, like WHW said means this conversation alone will make great fodder for in game character discussions.

                      I'll rest my belief and reasoning on this: Is anything forced ever really a good thing? Can anyone truly say that they have the right to make the decision for how things should be and follow through with that decision with incredible power & influence when other individual's lives are on the line? Especially when this decision is one born of profound self-interest? I would say that forcing a decision upon another human being can only be a necessary evil, something done when the needs of society or the world are greater and something that should only be done sparingly or out of desperation. Never for a single individual's happiness. Even if that single individual is yourself.

                      But then again, I would probably be the Libertine Alchemist if this was an in game conversation. Trying to say that all you're really doing is passing on the Lead Coin to the next generation without their consent rather than paying it to free yourself from worldly suffering and want. That if you really wanted to give your future self the choice to continue on your life's work then why not make a Grimoire or Daimonomicon and just Fate 5 that to eventually be discovered by your future incarnation. Let them wonder and find inspiration form the Wise who blazed a path through the Lie before them. Give them a choice without the burden of a whole other life they never lived.
                      Yeah, I think this is one of those things we're just not going to see eye to eye on. I just don't see this as forcing something on someone else. You've made the conscious decision to force your own rebirth. The person who will inherit your memories isn't some stranger, it's still just you, albeit a you who has forgotten he made that choice. I can see why you might come to your conclusion it's just not one I agree with. That said, this goes to show how Acts of Hubris might get out of hand when one party sees something as totally evil while another party sees it as perfectly justifiable.

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