Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[Silver Ladder] Ladder of Existence - Bardoi Problem

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [Silver Ladder] Ladder of Existence - Bardoi Problem

    Rereading Silver Ladder Order book I have one massive problem – Great Ladder of Existence itself. And particularly it’s priorities in eyes of Order. Quick recap for all – Silver Ladder believes there are classes for more essential strata’s of society – those parts that should rule humanity at large. It’s their titular Silver Ladder of Existence and it looks like this ( from top to down ):
    1. Mages
    2. Hiereoi – Philosophers and priests
    3. Technoi – Experts and specialists, modern examples are IT guys or architects
    4. Polemarchs – Managers and directors
    5. Stratiotoi – Mob enforcers, cops, soldier
    6. Bardoi – Movie stars, musicians and socialites
    7. Demoi – Simple crowd - laborers, service workers, the homeless and middle managers
    8. Terata – Monsters, like vampires, werewolves or changelings
    I look over this list and I’m really confused by Silver Ladder views. Especially on Bardoi – it’s like third of character concepts connected to Order I think comes from ‘secretly inspiring artists or singer’ idea that fit so perfect Silver Ladder being Voice of Dragon. Them being lower than Stratiotoi, police and soldiers just sound - please forgive me, but… stupid?

    Bardoi works to inspire people, to remember them that they are persons, not cogs in machine, to look beyond their everyday worries and move their souls – it’s like half of Elemental Percepts rights there! From my reading of Great Ladder, it should be that Bardoi be on top of Polemarchs, not under Stratiotoi, as they are more essential to Tearchs goals of freeing humanity.


    My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
    LGBT+ through Ages
    LGBT+ in CoD games

  • #2
    Bonus - Example on what can Bardoi Tearch inspire in young witches ( with good music from American Horror Story - Coven ).

    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-16-2017, 11:59 PM.


    My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
    LGBT+ through Ages
    LGBT+ in CoD games

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
      Bardoi works to inspire people, to remember them that they are persons, not cogs in machine, to look beyond their everyday worries and move their souls – it’s like half of Elemental Percepts rights there! From my reading of Great Ladder, it should be that Bardoi be on top of Polemarchs, not under Stratiotoi, as they are more essential to Tearchs goals of freeing humanity.
      Literally the first thing the section tells you about the placement of the Bardoi is that they're only important because they're famous for any reason at all. The latest viral video star doesn't need to have a shred of talent to be counted among the Bardoi.


      Resident Lore-Hound
      Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

      Comment


      • #4
        1. Mages
        2. Hiereoi – Philosophers and priests
        3. Technoi – Experts and specialists, modern examples are IT guys or architects
        4. Polemarchs – Managers and directors
        5. Stratiotoi – Mob enforcers, cops, soldier
        6. Bardoi – Movie stars, musicians and socialites
        7. Demoi – Simple crowd - laborers, service workers, the homeless and middle managers
        8. Terata – Monsters, like vampires, werewolves or changelings
        Bardoi works to inspire people, to remember them that they are persons, not cogs in machine, to look beyond their everyday worries and move their souls – it’s like half of Elemental Percepts rights there! From my reading of Great Ladder, it should be that Bardoi be on top of Polemarchs, not under Stratiotoi, as they are more essential to Tearchs goals of freeing humanity.
        As I understand it, Bardoi is not a catch-all category for artists. Those who have artistic talent in inspiring people as you describe above, those who create not mere earworms or viral videos but true masterpieces, easily qualify as Technoi in the sense that they're the experts and specialists of the art of inspiration. If those people develop a philosophy on art and life over a life-long career of pursuing Beauty, then they could qualify even as Hiereoi.


        MtAw Homebrew:
        Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
        New 2E Legacies, expanded

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
          As I understand it, Bardoi is not a catch-all category for artists. Those who have artistic talent in inspiring people as you describe above, those who create not mere earworms or viral videos but true masterpieces, easily qualify as Technoi in the sense that they're the experts and specialists of the art of inspiration. If those people develop a philosophy on art and life over a life-long career of pursuing Beauty, then they could qualify even as Hiereoi.
          Okay, with those interpretation I can go on - even if this is not obvious from reading of Ladder of Existence section.

          Other interesting problem - I now read Fallen Blossoms Dark Era in Edo shoguante of Japan. In that time, society hierarchy was called Four Divisions of Society (shinokosho) and looked like this:

          1. Samurai ( and informally priests and monks )
          2. Farmers
          3. Marchants
          4. Eta ( 'No people', like proffesions on contact with death, childbirth, menstruation,
          disease, and other “unclean” activities )
          5. Hinin ( like convicts and vagrants )
          6. Other ( those totally outside of social order - like geisha and entertainers )

          I wonder if Edo period Silver Ladder would follow their Western Ladder of Existence or rather stay to their homeland shogunate order of society?
          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-17-2017, 04:58 AM.


          My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
          LGBT+ through Ages
          LGBT+ in CoD games

          Comment


          • #6
            You missed out artisans.

            It's possible, though bear in mind, it's an adaptation of an older Confusian model so I'd expect them to think of the catagories in more abstract terms rather than rigid caste hierarchy.


            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

              Other interesting problem - I now read Fallen Blossoms Dark Era in Edo shoguante of Japan. In that time, society hierarchy was called Four Divisions of Society (shinokosho) and looked like this:

              1. Samurai ( and informally priests and monks )
              2. Farmers
              3. Marchants
              4. Eta ( 'No people', like proffesions on contact with death, childbirth, menstruation,
              disease, and other “unclean” activities )
              5. Hinin ( like convicts and vagrants )
              6. Other ( those totally outside of social order - like geisha and entertainers )

              I wonder if Edo period Silver Ladder would follow their Western Ladder of Existence or rather stay to their homeland shogunate order of society?
              Most swordsmen would be Stratiatoi at best. Most samurai, being feudalists, would be Polemarchs who manage their piece of land and their family. The most skilled of those samurai, be in swordsmanship or politics (as in, managing their land) would be Technoi. And the rare few who actually understood and internalized the Buddhist/Shinto philosophy behind bushido (which was in reality not kept that well, despite how the modern era romanticizes it) would be Hiereoi.

              Merchants would be Polemarchs at best and never Technoi or above, since commerce wouldn't be recognized as an area of expertise or something to develop a philosophy upon until capitalism is fully fleshed out. Everyone else is mostly Demoi. Still, it's amusing that the entertainers would technically be Bardoi, placing them above most of the common folk.


              MtAw Homebrew:
              Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
              New 2E Legacies, expanded

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't put too much stock on 1e order books since I feel all the orders have changed their focus significantly. I personally feel this ladder to be pretty ludicrous, and don't think many modern mages would put too much stock into it. Yeah, some might. But not enough to make it a core tenet of the Order.

                I belive 2e Silver Ladder to be more concerned with organizing and leading Mages, and leaving the specifics of managing Sleepers to retainers.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                  I belive 2e Silver Ladder to be more concerned with organizing and leading Mages, and leaving the specifics of managing Sleepers to retainers.
                  I see you didn't bother to read the entire 2e SL section, particularly the part about the Elemental Precepts and what the Star means to them.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                    I don't put too much stock on 1e order books since I feel all the orders have changed their focus significantly. I personally feel this ladder to be pretty ludicrous, and don't think many modern mages would put too much stock into it. Yeah, some might. But not enough to make it a core tenet of the Order.
                    Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                    I see you didn't bother to read the entire 2e SL section, particularly the part about the Elemental Precepts and what the Star means to them.
                    Not too mention Dark Eras based on Silver Ladder points on leading everyone in their pointed hierarchy based on Sacred Trees or hierarchy of Heavens.


                    My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                    LGBT+ through Ages
                    LGBT+ in CoD games

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                      I see you didn't bother to read the entire 2e SL section, particularly the part about the Elemental Precepts and what the Star means to them.
                      Nowhere in the single parragraph dedicated to Star says anything about this outdated nonsense. Yes, the idea of a Ladder and that everyone has a place on it is there, but it's not this caste system bs. This very specific, rigid hierarchical and baseless order is a very tough sell to a modern person. And I wouldn't consider it a core tenet of the order anymore.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                        Nowhere in the single parragraph dedicated to Star says anything about this outdated nonsense. Yes, the idea of a Ladder and that everyone has a place on it is there, but it's not this caste system bs. This very specific, rigid hierarchical and baseless order is a very tough sell to a modern person. And I wouldn't consider it a core tenet of the order anymore.
                        The caste system isn't rigid, it's about defining where a person is on the ladder and then pushing them up it (at their own pace) until everyone is at the top. So yeah, it still applies.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think the contradiction is that although Silver Ladder are posing as altruistic idealists, their hierarchy system reveals a more arrogant side of them.

                          Silver Ladder is like a University, with it's (Mage) members being the professors and students being Sleepers.

                          All professors know that their job is to elevate their students towards some degree of higher knowledge. (All are Silver Ladder)
                          Some professors believe that each student should recieve equivalent amounts of education thus helping the weak students more. (Ladder's Equality-for-all Ideal)
                          Others believe that because students learn at different rates, so different speed classes are needed, thus helping the strong students more. (Ladder's hierarchy system)
                          But most are somewhere in between

                          Maybe there are multiple Silver Ladders of Existance, different for each Caucus/Mentor/Member, with the book describing the dominant one.
                          Maybe Bardoi are higher Polemarchs in the Silver Ladder of Paris , where offsprings from notable musicians and artists become Sleepwalkers.

                          Sadly, I do not have the specific book, but does it say explicitly that there is only one Ladder of Existance?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The Silver Ladder book says that, no, this model of the Ladder is not the only one, merely the dominant one. Local variation and heresy are pretty much the rule rather than the exception for the Pentacle Orders.

                            I don't see the Ladder's attitudes as a contradiction, though, myself; they're noblesse oblige incarnate. That arrogance isn't a bug, it's a feature. Back at the turn of the last century, they'd be a target for Kipling's satire. There's no logical contradiction to it, merely a great moral dubiousness.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Shadowjim, I very like University metaphor. It's exactly how it is in modern higher education and that's why I always felt that 'university cabals' should be made rather from Silver Ladder than Mysterium.


                              My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                              LGBT+ through Ages
                              LGBT+ in CoD games

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X