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Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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  • 21C Hermit
    started a topic Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

    Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

    I'm using this thread as both a homebrew hub, venue for receiving criticisms, and way to receive suggestions for conversions should anyone reading this be interested in all this.

    MAJOR EDIT:

    Since one post can apparently only contain 30 or so links, I'm dividing the opening post and its links across three or four posts. Please wait a bit until I get this all ready. (I dunno about how to make Google Docs and Drive stuff...)

    I'm starting with the "Other Legacies" that got mentioned in the Mage 2E core, and whatever anyone interested in this thread have suggested to me. Dave Brookshaw said he will redesign these 1E Legacies in the future, so I've been steering away from them. But since it'll take quite some time for that official conversion, I'm guessing there's no real point in trying to avoid them.

    Oh, and some of you may have noticed that I've changed the 'template' for these Legacies, so that it's now almost the exact the same thing that Mage 2E core used for the Eleventh Question. I'm thinking of revisiting my older stuff to fit that template, tidying up some sentences as I do it... and perhaps even change things like Attainments.

    EDIT: I also should start listing where these Legacies originate from. Just in case people mistake I'm the original creator, when I'm anything but.

    Acanthus-origin Legacies
    • Walkers in Mists (Space) - originally from Mage: The Awakening (1E core)
    • House of Ariadne (Time) - originally from Legacies: The Sublime
    • Sisterhood of the Blessed (Fate) - Stopgap containing the Attainments' framework. Will finish the proper one later.
    • Pygmalion Society (Mind) - originally from Legacies: The Sublime
    • Blank Badges (Mind) - originally from Free Council
    • Carnival Melancholy (Death) (Left-Handed) - originally from Silver Ladder
    • Tamers of Winds (Forces) - originally from Legacies: The Ancient
    • Awakening Gambit (Mind) - originally from Adamantine Arrows
    • People of the Hour (Time) - originally from Summoners
    • Roses of Eden (Life) - originally from Keys to the Supernal Tarot
    Mastigos-origin Legacies​Moros-origin Legacies
    • Uncrowned Kings (Mind) - originally from Mage: The Awakening (1E core)
    • Stone Scribes (Time) - originally from Legacies: The Sublime
    • Bokor (Death) - originally from Tome of the Watchtowers
    • Forge Masters (Prime) - originally from Legacies: The Ancient
    • Votaries of the Ordained (Fate) - originally from Guardians of the Veil
    • Logophages (Prime) (Left-Handed) - originally from Legacies: The Ancient
    • Thread Cutters (Fate) - originally from Legacies: The Ancient
    • Tamers of Stone (Space) - originally from Legacies: The Ancient
    • Celestial Masters (Forces) - originally from Keys to the Supernal Tarot
    • Stygian Heralds (Death) - originally from Summoners
    • Quiescent (Time) - originally from Mage Noir
    • Cult of the Doomsday Clock (Time) (Left-Handed) - originally from Legacies: The Sublime
    Obrimos- and Thyrsus-parentage Legacies, along with the rare Legacies with no Path association (read; "aberrations"), are continued in the next post.
    Last edited by 21C Hermit; 10-30-2021, 09:11 PM.

  • Cauthon
    replied
    Originally posted by Obsidian Pharaoh View Post
    I'm curious why the Perfected Adepts specifically gave you that impression over all the other Legacies in that book that need a conjunctional Arcanum in their first Attainment. Is it because they use two technically unrelated effects together? Regardless, it's highly unlikely the Perfected Adepts have such a "combined track", given the way their 1e Attainments are. The ones that did actually set such a precedent were the Keepers of the Covenant in 1e, which were updated to 2e in Dark Eras 2.
    Forgetfulness and skimming, honestly. I'd looked at the Adepts recently, so they were the first thing I thought of. Claimed squick me out, so I kinda shunned the Keepers as soon as I read their Doom. Also the fact that the Legacies in Nameless and Accursed run the gamut of having listed Optional Attainments, having Two-Arcana Primary Attainments, and having both. Makes for murky recall. As you said though, Adepts and Keepers have two distinct spell effects within their listed Attainment, whereas, say, the Chronologues only have one Time effect with a neat Fate rider.

    I'd love to see few more complete Legacies published. Makes it easier to gage what proper Attainments look like.
    Last edited by Cauthon; 11-08-2022, 07:59 PM.

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  • Obsidian Pharaoh
    replied
    Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
    Hello Obsidian Pharaoh! Yours is one of the opinions I respect the most in these forums.

    What do you think about my question, can you also refund the optional effect if you have it as a praxis?
    Hey, lbeaumanior. I'm incredibly flattered and humbled you think that. Thank you very much.

    As for your question, I personally think it makes more sense that no refund would be due in that scenario since optional Attainments are technically free experience-wise. However, it's not exactly a game-breaking ruling to allow it so why not. You could maybe put a limit of one refund per Attainment, primary or optional, if you wanted some kind of constraint on it.

    Leave a comment:


  • lbeaumanior
    replied
    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
    This depends on the ruling at each table. Personally I would say yes. If ruled optional Attainments are bought separately and you invested to learn it by yourself, then you should get a refund. Learning was the goal, it was achieved in a thematic way, so now you are not behind on experience because of it.
    But the text is clear that you dont buy them separately, if you have the Arcana at that value or higher, you get the optional effect. No extra effort.

    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
    If you decided optional Attainment are included in the price of the main one and are unlocked if you have the Arcana, then I also think you should provide the option to give a refund. Since Attainments are reliable, there is heavy incentive to cast it normally unless they are trying to maximize the spell factors (since characters in game have no clue of the Beat economy). In that case, I would rather give the player the option to invest that point into another interesting thing, since it promotes variety.
    This is more aligned to what we see happening, thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • KaiserAfini
    replied
    Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
    Cauthon 21C Hermit KaiserAfini What do you think about http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/1468420-2e-legacy-optional-attaiments"]refunding praxes for optional attainments[/URL]?

    What I mean is, it is clear you can refund an attainment if you have it as a praxis, but can you also refund the optional effect if you have it as a praxis?

    I have heard "No, because it is a complementary effect of the attainment, singular, that you buy", or "Yes, you can refund it as it is a distinct attainment on itself"
    This depends on the ruling at each table. Personally I would say yes. If ruled optional Attainments are bought separately and you invested to learn it by yourself, then you should get a refund. Learning was the goal, it was achieved in a thematic way, so now you are not behind on experience because of it.

    If you decided optional Attainment are included in the price of the main one and are unlocked if you have the Arcana, then I also think you should provide the option to give a refund. Since Attainments are reliable, there is heavy incentive to cast it normally unless they are trying to maximize the spell factors (since characters in game have no clue of the Beat economy). In that case, I would rather give the player the option to invest that point into another interesting thing, since it promotes variety.

    Leave a comment:


  • lbeaumanior
    replied
    Originally posted by Obsidian Pharaoh View Post
    You don't. You automatically "learn" them if you have their Arcana prerequisites. The cost was already paid for the primary effect of the Attainment.

    I'm curious why the Perfected Adepts specifically gave you that impression over all the other Legacies in that book that need a conjunctional Arcanum in their first Attainment. Is it because they use two technically unrelated effects together? Regardless, it's highly unlikely the Perfected Adepts have such a "combined track", given the way their 1e Attainments are. The ones that did actually set such a precedent were the Keepers of the Covenant in 1e, which were updated to 2e in Dark Eras 2.
    Hello Obsidian Pharaoh! Yours is one of the opinions I respect the most in these forums.

    What do you think about my question, can you also refund the optional effect if you have it as a praxis?

    Leave a comment:


  • Obsidian Pharaoh
    replied
    Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
    I've always been iffy on whether you have to buy the optional Attainments or not.
    You don't. You automatically "learn" them if you have their Arcana prerequisites. The cost was already paid for the primary effect of the Attainment.

    Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
    It's worth noting, however, that the Perfected Adepts in Nameless and Accursed seem to set a precedent of "combined track" Legacies - no optional Attainments, and you need ranks in both Arcana to progress, but each Attainment is a combined effect.
    I'm curious why the Perfected Adepts specifically gave you that impression over all the other Legacies in that book that need a conjunctional Arcanum in their first Attainment. Is it because they use two technically unrelated effects together? Regardless, it's highly unlikely the Perfected Adepts have such a "combined track", given the way their 1e Attainments are. The ones that did actually set such a precedent were the Keepers of the Covenant in 1e, which were updated to 2e in Dark Eras 2.

    Leave a comment:


  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
    Cauthon 21C Hermit KaiserAfini What do you think about refunding praxes for optional attainments?

    What I mean is, it is clear you can refund an attainment if you have it as a praxis, but can you also refund the optional effect if you have it as a praxis?

    I have heard "No, because it is a complementary effect of the attainment, singular, that you buy", or "Yes, you can refund it as it is a distinct attainment on itself"

    I would've answered as the latter a few months or so ago, but recently I'm leaning towards the former. Not a deep assessment, though, so just take this as a "general opinions" thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cauthon
    replied
    I've always been iffy on whether you have to buy the optional Attainments or not. The fact that Mages can make novel Attainments makes me think that the optional track is bought separately, but the way it reads in RAW sounds like the optional Attainments come as part of the initial purchase package. It's worth noting, however, that the Perfected Adepts in Nameless and Accursed seem to set a precedent of "combined track" Legacies - no optional Attainments, and you need ranks in both Arcana to progress, but each Attainment is a combined effect. That would lean towards the part-and-parcel reading of the rules. Granted, there's only one published Attainment from them, but it's something.

    I take the middle ground - If you spent XP to buy the optional Attainment, then the Praxis is refunded. If you get it as part of the package, then it isn't refunded. Not super helpful, I know, but it really depend on how your table interprets the rules.
    Last edited by Cauthon; 11-07-2022, 08:11 PM.

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  • lbeaumanior
    replied
    Cauthon 21C Hermit KaiserAfini What do you think about refunding praxes for optional attainments?

    What I mean is, it is clear you can refund an attainment if you have it as a praxis, but can you also refund the optional effect if you have it as a praxis?

    I have heard "No, because it is a complementary effect of the attainment, singular, that you buy", or "Yes, you can refund it as it is a distinct attainment on itself"

    Leave a comment:


  • Cauthon
    replied
    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

    Man, I need to trim that down some time later — I was feeling particularly word-y back then

    The intention was as what Cauthon said, though the Exp min-maxing caught me off guard there. Huh, that’s certainly a perk.
    While I'd love to take credit for the Libertine Thyrsus' Mind-Viagra(tm), I'm 99% certain I read that conclusion elsewhere. It's been so long that I can't remember where (here, maybe?), but it's been rattling around my skull and influencing me ever since.
    Last edited by Cauthon; 11-01-2022, 01:41 AM.

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  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post

    Which in itself could lead to all sorts of interesting places. Perhaps the mage feels incomplete now that they aren't part of a hive mind. Maybe they simply decide to become the central hub that unifies the psychic might, joining the Cloud Infinite or even developing a minflayer/elder brain inspired Legacy. They could even choose to take the fight to the Abyss, in order to prevent others from falling into this Legacy, choosing to wield unspeakable horrors to defeat it, eventually joining the Fangs of Mara.
    Cloud Infinite would certainly be a scary prospect.

    Leave a comment:


  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
    ]
    When banishing, what happens with the attainments: Do you get refunded the XP? Do you keep them minus the Morphean related effects? Does Mind stop being a ruling Arcanum?
    Man, I need to trim that down some time later — I was feeling particularly word-y back then

    The intention was as what Cauthon said, though the Exp min-maxing caught me off guard there. Huh, that’s certainly a perk.

    Leave a comment:


  • KaiserAfini
    replied
    Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
    I believe it gets a refund. Mind does indeed stop being Ruling, which makes it a dangerous way to maximize XP usage - join them first, master Mind, then excise the infection and join a different Legacy.
    Which in itself could lead to all sorts of interesting places. Perhaps the mage feels incomplete now that they aren't part of a hive mind. Maybe they simply decide to become the central hub that unifies the psychic might, joining the Cloud Infinite or even developing a minflayer/elder brain inspired Legacy. They could even choose to take the fight to the Abyss, in order to prevent others from falling into this Legacy, choosing to wield unspeakable horrors to defeat it, eventually joining the Fangs of Mara.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cauthon
    replied
    I believe it gets a refund. Mind does indeed stop being Ruling, which makes it a dangerous way to maximize XP usage - join them first, master Mind, then excise the infection and join a different Legacy.

    Leave a comment:

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