Life vs. Vampires

[Rahuman101]

Hello. I have a question or two about the LIfe Arcanum. If the title doesn't give it away, it has to do with vampires. In my current game, I have a player who's playing a mage and he has become involved with some vampires. One of which has become a love interest. This has motivated him to try and find a cure for vampirism. He believes he can do this with Life. I'm not sure if that's going to work, but it has made me wonder.

So, put simply, how much does the Life Arcanum effect vampires? Can it effect vampires? Is what he wants feasible? He thinks its as simple as using Life to reinvigorate and instill life back into the body which should, in theory, end the vampiric state.

One more question. Can Fraying Life spells, like Bruise Flesh, harm vampires? Any help and insight would be much appreciated.

[Falcon777]

The Life arcanum cannot affect vampires directly, as they would fall under the purview of Death. Also, what he wishes to do is something that even the most powerful archmage would hesitate to take on. Giving the gifts of another supernatural creature is within the bounds of what an archmaster may be able to do, but removing said gifts would pit that archmage against the one that created the gifts to begin with. In effect, the player would make a bid in the ascension war. That's not something to be done lightly.

It's also out of reach of the player presuming the player's character isn't a very highly trained archmage. Removing the gift of vampirism would likely require archmastery of Life, Death, and Prime, at the very least, anyways. It very well could also require archmastery of Mind, Fate, and/or Spirit.

[WaywardPaladin]

The soul of a vampire is shattered, so it takes more than Life. They are also under a curse, and there are some indications that there is something malignant and nearly sapient living in their blood, the Beast that spreads taint to all things they come in contact with.

So he'd need Archmastery and a whole lot of Spheres to try to turn them human again. With high enough Life though he might be able to enchant them to have the Blush of Health going all the time?

[Falcon777]

The soul of a vampire is shattered, so it takes more than Life. They are also under a curse, and there are some indications that there is something malignant and nearly sapient living in their blood, the Beast that spreads taint to all things they come in contact with.

So he'd need Archmastery and a whole lot of Spheres to try to turn them human again. With high enough Life though he might be able to enchant them to have the Blush of Health going all the time?

Spheres aren't a thing in mage. They haven't been a thing in mage since Mage the awakening came out over a decade ago.

[WaywardPaladin]

Spheres aren't a thing in mage. They haven't been a thing in mage since Mage the awakening came out over a decade ago.

I'm sure you are aware that I was referring to Arcanum by that.

[Epimetheus]

The Life arcanum cannot affect vampires directly, as they would fall under the purview of Death. Also, what he wishes to do is something that even the most powerful archmage would hesitate to take on. Giving the gifts of another supernatural creature is within the bounds of what an archmaster may be able to do, but removing said gifts would pit that archmage against the one that created the gifts to begin with. In effect, the player would make a bid in the ascension war. That's not something to be done lightly.

It's also out of reach of the player presuming the player's character isn't a very highly trained archmage. Removing the gift of vampirism would likely require archmastery of Life, Death, and Prime, at the very least, anyways. It very well could also require archmastery of Mind, Fate, and/or Spirit.

It'd only require dead and life or just death. You don't have to work directly on the soul just the concept of vampirism to remove it. More importantly it really only is a pax break if you do it to all vampires, a large majority or a key vampire AND get caught. At best it's a minor infraction on a singular vampire or multiple but major on all of them.

[Mrmdubois]

It'd only require dead and life or just death. You don't have to work directly on the soul just the concept of vampirism to remove it. More importantly it really only is a pax break if you do it to all vampires, a large majority or a key vampire AND get caught. At best it's a minor infraction on a singular vampire or multiple but major on all of them.

Still takes arch-mastery and Life doesn't do a thing about it because Life doesn't affect vampires.

Hey, Time 4 can do it with Rewrite History though. You have to move the spell to Indefinite Duration and it might get dispelled and cause it to revert. Technically, Indefinite isn't forever either, so theoretically in the far distant future after they're both dead the spell would end and she'd suddenly get up as a vampire as her history reverts.

[Epimetheus]

Still takes arch-mastery and Life doesn't do a thing about it because Life doesn't affect vampires.

Hey, Time 4 can do it with Rewrite History though. You have to move the spell to Indefinite Duration and it might get dispelled and cause it to revert. Technically, Indefinite isn't forever either, so theoretically in the far distant future after they're both dead the spell would end and she'd suddenly get up as a vampire as her history reverts.

Well yes but we were talking about archmastery so it's implied. I don't think rewrite history lets you augment template at all.

[Mrmdubois]

Well yes but we were talking about archmastery so it's implied. I don't think rewrite history lets you augment template at all.

Check the spell.

[falco1029]

Removing the Vampiric template took Death 7 in Imperial Mysteries. 2e is more potent, but I believe Dave has gone on record as saying any lasting change of a supernatural's state is still archmastery only.

Though, for a temporary change, Time 4 can temporarily make it as if they were never Embraced (if you're not like me and say the Mage auto-loses a Clash of Wills against a clan progenitor when they try that).

But no, Life can't do anything to Vampires directly. They're not living, they don't fall under the purview.

[21C Hermit]

Life 7 grants access to the Practice of Entities, described as incorporating something of the Arcanum into the target. This fits the idea of instilling life back into a body to reinvigorate and resurrect it. Pretty much the only way to make a corpse alive again solely with Life... but this would still piss off certain invested and powerful people, and only the "walking dead" part of vampirism is removed here.

With 7 dots in an Arcanum, you also get access to the Practice of Excision, which completely removes something that falls under the Arcanum from the subject. So Death 7 can also remove the "dead guy" part of vampires, but this would result in an abomination neither alive nor dead.

As for the "symptoms" of vampirism, all the unholy thirst for blood and pangs of frenzy are mostly the work of the Beast, so that needs to go. Thing is, even Vampire doesn't quite reveal just what the Beast really is. The common interpretation is that it's a psychic entity, born either by dialing the Id up to eleven or injecting it from the outside. Either way, if the Beast is a "mere" psychic entity, then Mind 7 should be able to Excise it. However, as others noted, the Beast may be a supernatural curse or some sort of ghostly demon, which would then require Fate 7 or Death 7 again.

Time 4 can do it almost trivially, with the Rewrite History spell. You need to meet the +2 Reach option to affect supernatural creatures. And even if made indefinite, it can be dispelled easily and unexpectedly. If we go to Archmastery, then once again Time 7 should be able to pluck out the bit of past history where the vampire was Embraced.

[kryptonitekrusher]

If I'm not with mistaken, with Life 5 and Mind 4 you could create a body-double with Making and transfer the consciousness of the vampire into the body-double with Patterning.

At that point, the vampire body should be put into torpor and locked away somewhere safe so if the spell ever gets dispelled the consciousness has a preserved shell to return to; even if it needs to be untorpor'd to animate again.

EDIT: Again, Time 4 seems to be the best guy for the job.

[Hardwire99]

Well yes but we were talking about archmastery so it's implied. I don't think rewrite history lets you augment template at all.

The Dev's have stated the Rewrite History can remove a template. This discussion was in the Geist thread where I ask the question. Here is the thread and we have Dave and GimpInBlack (Both Devs) Stating that it takes Archmastery to do it but Rewrite History can do it temporarily.

[WaywardPaladin]

Unfortunately with Rewrite History, depending on how old the person would be now, taking away the event of them becoming a vampire might just insta-kill them from old age?

[Fortunatus]

The Dev's have stated the Rewrite History can remove a template. This discussion was in the Geist thread where I ask the question. Here is the thread and we have Dave and GimpInBlack (Both Devs) Stating that it takes Archmastery to do it but Rewrite History can do it temporarily.

No need for the developers' posts. Rewrite History explicitly states that it can temporarily remove templates that aren't intrinsic to the subject's being (e.g. vampire or changeling, but not werewolf or demon) with a +2 Reach.