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  • Exceptional Success on Unmaking attack spell

    ...does it allow to ignore Withstand of target and outright slay the it, no save, no chance to block?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Dark Archon View Post
    ...does it allow to ignore Withstand of target and outright slay the it, no save, no chance to block?
    Exceptional success on a spell allows you to bypass Withstand, so yes. What it doesn't do is trump a 2 dot Shielding spell that turns the conflict into a CoW.

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    • #3
      It also doesn't ignore the automatic Clash of Wills that some Unmaking spells always include such as Annihilate Spirit. But that's a straight up "You die" spell instead of an actual damage spell.


      Bloodline: The Stygians

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Dark Archon View Post
        ...does it allow to ignore Withstand of target and outright slay the it, no save, no chance to block?
        Nope. There is a sidebar where it explains that Unmaking spells always deal with Withstand


        I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

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        • #5
          And "ignore the Withstand that exists" on an exceptional success does count as "dealing" with it. The Withstand's there, you're just blasting past it with an exeptionally well-made spell.


          Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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          • #6
            Not quite on topic, but related: Are there Clash of Wills on Unmaking spells that annihilate non-ephemeral entities? For example Life Unmaking to straight up kill someone, or Mind Unmaking targetting the consciousness of a human. If yes, would it also expand to animals?


            Bloodline: The Stygians

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            • #7
              Clash of Wills relies on a supernatural effect that operates counter to the spell already being in place.

              So... No. It would not expand to animals. Unless that animal had a Life 2 spell on it to shield its pattern against someone Unmaking it.


              Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                And "ignore the Withstand that exists" on an exceptional success does count as "dealing" with it. The Withstand's there, you're just blasting past it with an exeptionally well-made spell.
                Oh? So Exceptional Successes do let you bypass the targets Withstand if you so choose? I thought the sidebar "I Turn Him Into a Frog!" was put there specifically to say that you couldn't do that. So does that just specifically refer to instances where even if the target was trying to let the spell through it would still apply Withstood regardless of what they wanted? So you couldn't, say, trick a high level spirit into not resisting an instant death spell on the premise that you were going to cast a spell to give it a tribute of Essence?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                  Clash of Wills relies on a supernatural effect that operates counter to the spell already being in place.

                  So... No. It would not expand to animals. Unless that animal had a Life 2 spell on it to shield its pattern against someone Unmaking it.
                  .... You know on that sub-topic. Say you use magic to automatically kill a vampire, promethean, or similar entity through... . Obviously such an entity has an 'animating force' causing it to well... be alive. Would you say that such creatures would then clash due to their very nature? Would an effect such as a werewolf's regeneration be enough to risk a clash against an effect that would ordinarily kill a normal biological being (I know - I'm probably reaching there with the werewolves but I've always been a little bit curious if a werewolf hit with eradicate energy would not have a higher chance of coming back from that. Kind of like - you eradicate the energy in a wolf, but by their very nature they have an increased amount of energy going towards healing, etc.) >.>

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jakondite View Post

                    .... You know on that sub-topic. Say you use magic to automatically kill a vampire, promethean, or similar entity through... . Obviously such an entity has an 'animating force' causing it to well... be alive. Would you say that such creatures would then clash due to their very nature? Would an effect such as a werewolf's regeneration be enough to risk a clash against an effect that would ordinarily kill a normal biological being (I know - I'm probably reaching there with the werewolves but I've always been a little bit curious if a werewolf hit with eradicate energy would not have a higher chance of coming back from that. Kind of like - you eradicate the energy in a wolf, but by their very nature they have an increased amount of energy going towards healing, etc.) >.>
                    The thing about Eradicate Energy is it doesn't care how much energy you have, because it's all going bye-bye. But Elements Gifts (or similar) might let you buff yourself with something that lets you Clash of Wills.

                    But the general answer is no anyway - you don't get a Clash Of Wills just for being a supernatural entity, you need some directly opposed effect.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Eggs Maledict View Post

                      The thing about Eradicate Energy is it doesn't care how much energy you have, because it's all going bye-bye. But Elements Gifts (or similar) might let you buff yourself with something that lets you Clash of Wills.

                      But the general answer is no anyway - you don't get a Clash Of Wills just for being a supernatural entity, you need some directly opposed effect.
                      To clarify, the question wasn't 'do you get a clash of wills for being a supernatural entity'. It's actually 'do the forces animating a vampire or promethean clash with the mages force to end that life because the curse or divine flame is animating it.' and 'would you consider regeneration, which is a spiritual effect that by it's very nature will create energy, enough to clash with an effect to end all energy within a person'. I would have said 'do supernaturals get a clash for being supernaturals' if that was what I meant.

                      I do concede it's a bit of a reach on the werewolf bit - but my thought is - if one removes all energy in something, they are removing all motion, all growth, all healing, all biological effects which keep a person alive and moving. For a werewolf, their healing is in fact, a supernatural phenomena - one of the many which are stopped. On the other hand, in that case it's indirectly opposed, rather than directly opposed - a werewolf probably doesn't need the same energy a human needs (they are fueled by essence), and if they are autodead they would not regenerate in any case :-p.

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                      • #12
                        I'd say Luna only stops mages from turning living werewolves into living non-werewolves, but leaves turning living werewolves into dead werewolves. Dead werewolves are expected casualties when you field your agents in the supernatural world. Same logic for all the other templates.


                        MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                        • #13
                          "The truth is, most attempts by mages to transfigure werewolves fail simply because all werewolves have the inherent ability to become human and transforming their body doesn't remove it."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                            "The truth is, most attempts by mages to transfigure werewolves fail simply because all werewolves have the inherent ability to become human and transforming their body doesn't remove it."
                            I would clarify: Werewolves have the inherent supernatural ability to become human, transforming their body doesn't remove that ability, and.that ability justifies a supernatural Clash of Wills every time the werewolf attempts to exercise that ability. Also arguably they have the inherent supernatural ability to retain human level intelligence while in forms other than human, (wolves lack the neurological hard-wiring to do that, and thus that trait must be attributed to their half spirit nature) which isn't removed by transforming their body, so attempts to side step the issue of the werewolf's will by turning them into a brick wouldn't be effective.You'd need to render the werewolf's will inert before attempts to keep them in a particular form would be successful, and at that point, you have their will , why do you need to transform them? Of course being Unmade is not a transformation, but rather a total destruction, but the reason I seek to clarify this issue is because it leads to a line of reasoning that points back to the main topic: destruction at the hands of an Unmaking spell that has an exceptional success, and what would justify Clash of Wills.

                            By the above line of reasoning, (assuming Sin-Eater retain the ability to rise from the dead in 2nd ed) Sin-Eaters would get a Clash of Wills every time their Geist tries to bring them back, and Max Synergy is only lowered upon successful attempt to raise the Sin Eater from the dead (since it doesn't list the cost per attempt, but rather as per event of resurrection) so repeated Clash of Wills are likely if their host was Unmade. Arguably being Unmade is a type of death/ending which is totally a Geist's purview..

                            Besides Mages with Body Autonomy, and possible Sin-Eaters, are there any others that have a supernatural power that allows them to avoid being destroyed?
                            Last edited by Pale_Crusader; 02-24-2017, 09:56 AM.


                            “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” ~ Aristophanes
                            "Virescit Vulnere Virtus" ~ Stewart Clan Motto

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
                              Also arguably they have the inherent supernatural ability to retain human level intelligence while in forms other than human
                              As you said, arguably. But any voluntary shape shifting in CofD (be it Protean for vampires or the Life Arcanum for Mage) still has the shape shifter retain all their mental faculties. I'd rather say it's a side effect of the shape shifting instead of it being a separate ability.


                              Bloodline: The Stygians

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