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[Dark Eras] Diamond Orders in Middle Ages

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  • [Dark Eras] Diamond Orders in Middle Ages

    So interesting off-topic came from the topic about Orders shown from Sleepers and Sleepwalkers perspective:

    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    If Satan is Dragon, then how Diamond could use Christanity to spread itself in Middle Ages?
    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
    Of course, it's entirely possible that in the MtAw world, dragons got associated with The Enemy only because the mages used draconic imagery, and mages aren't exactly safe people to be around...
    Still, from logical stand point of Order spread by various philosophical systems, Diamond Orders and their Dragon Symbology need to be reconnected in someway with Christianity in Middle Ages, not being shown as forces of Satan. I base my Christanity assessment of Diamond Order historical spread on great post of glamourweaver which sounds solid:

    Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
    The Diamond Orders were born in the Alexandrian Empire. Rome actively makes itself a cultural heir of the Hellenistic world, so add its territory too to the expansion of the Diamond. Buddhism comes out of North India into China and beyond, so the Diamond easily expands throughout East Asia at the same time. Roman, Byzantine, and Coptic Christianity does the job of further expanding the Diamond (so that covers the rest of Europe and Russia), and once the Persian Empire is subsumed by the Caliphate, Islam does the same.


    My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
    MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
    WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

  • #2
    Paternoster propaganda at its finest.

    Satan = Dragon = Pentacle mages = evil

    In fact the common opinion is that pentacles are a symbol of satanism.

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    • #3
      But if Satan = Dragon and Diamond Orders ascribe themselves to Dragon Symbols then... How to reconciliation all those Silver Ladder, Panscyptias and Keepers of Word mages among Church priests and monks? Not too mention Tremere from 8th to 11th century with their total Dragon fixation...
      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-24-2017, 04:26 PM.


      My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
      MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
      WtF 2E - Alternative werewolves myths from around the world

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      • #4
        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
        But if Satan = Dragon and Diamond Orders ascribe themselves to Dragon Symbols then... How to reconciliation all those Silver Ladder, Panscyptias and Keepers of Word mages among Church priests and monks? Not too mention Tremere from 8th to 11th century with their total Dragon fixation...
        Well the Tremere wouldn't give a damn what the church thought, and honestly neither would the SL or the forerunners of the Mysterium. The SL would be more invested in the power they could exert via the church than in the particular symbols it employed. If someone Awoke then they could just tell them the truth, especially since at that point your whole world view is basically shattered anyway. The Keepers of the Word would only be interested in using the church to preserve information and might have even used the reversed symbolism as a form of encryption. The Pancryptiates wouldn't care, they were focused almost exclusively on escaping the Fallen World.

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        • #5
          There are plenty of examples of dragons on heraldry and so forth. It's really not that big a deal.


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          • #6
            So to sum up everyone's issue on this:
            • Diamond mages care more about using a given religion's institutions and infrastructure. They spread like how all those denominations and heresies spread.
            • Most mages don't give a damn about what those Sleepers say, since they clearly have no clue on what they're talking about. Newly Awakened mages might protest, but they soon understand how Sleepers might as well be, well, asleep to the truths of the world, and would slowly doubt what they've been told all their life by those well-meaning but oblivous Sleeper Christians.
            • Paternoster propaganda of associating dragons and pentacles with the Devil.
            • People used dragons all the time in their heraldry for the "Look at me I'm so badass" value.


            MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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            • #7
              Oh, and being actually invested in the beliefs held by Sleepers is a FC thing, the other four Orders just think of Christianity as corrupted Supernal symbolism anyway so of course they got the part about the dragons wrong.

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