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  • #16
    That's where I think different biases might sort of balance things out. Any supernatural being counts as a Sleepwalker, which makes them more capable of interacting with, understanding, and being useful to Mages. That alone probably means they can have a vote in the local Assembly unless it explicitly bars non-Mages. That seems unlikely to my mind, so they're probably at least legally equal in an Assembly and sought out by Mages.

    At the same time, rare is the supernatural being who is not at least somewhat detrimental to those around them by incident. As such, I can't imagine the laws designed by Awakened and Sleepwalkers for Awakened and Sleepwalkers will be charitable to them.

    In the end, really, there's no good way to be in cahoots with Mages if you aren't a Mage yourself. The solution is to stay as far away from them as possible.

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    • #17
      Not really caught up with 2nd ed Prom but are mages immune to disquiet? How does the cabal handle it?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
        To be fair to Mages: You can talk to your own ghost. That does something to diminish your perception that they are any more important than a video recording of your loved one.
        Mages can create life and entire personalities. That no more makes them less people worthy of your respect and consideration than anyone else made through more traditional means. There's no "fair" about it. Only hubris.

        Originally posted by totalgit View Post
        Not really caught up with 2nd ed Prom but are mages immune to disquiet? How does the cabal handle it?
        No, but magic can shield against or reverse the effects.

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        • #19
          I feel like questions of what is worthy of respect and consideration get sort of tricky in Mage, and the fact that ghosts get singled out for consideration betrays a profoundly anthropocentric bias. After all, everything has a spirit which a Mage can, with the right spell, wake up and have a chat to; a spirit that can have a discussion about the things experienced by its object. Consider, for a moment, the Thyrsus who has a chat with a jerrycan full of gasoline, then pours the gasoline they had a chat with into their car and starts it up. If it's horrifying to annihilate a sentient being you just had a chat with, why isn't it when you don't talk to your victim first?

          Likewise, consider goetia. Someone with severe trauma causing a psychosis has a goetic entity living in their mind that someone without that trauma does not. A Mage can summon forth that goetic entity, have conversations with it, sit down to tea to discuss the weather and what it's like to see your parents die in a car accident. The Mage can then put that spirit back and send the person to see a therapist who can, with a great deal of work and possibly years of endurance and adjustment, help that person past the blockage, thereby annihilating the goetic entity they had a chat with forever.

          But no-one's saying "Hey, don't you dare smelt that metal into a tool! What if the metal spirit likes being a lumpen mass of ore?", despite it doing exactly that. No-one's complaining about therapy killing goetia. Psychologists are not persecuted by the Awakened for being psychic serial killers.

          Ghosts are echoes of the dead; imprints of a deceased mind on the world. The more complete the imprint, the more complex the mind, but the majority of ghosts are like a gramophone skipping and playing the same music over and over. There's no reason to treat ghosts differently than you might any other spiritual phenomenon here just because it seems to think it was once some guy named Edgar. Or, so one assumes, anyway, since all it does if you leave it alone is write RAGDE over and over on mirrored surfaces.

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          • #20
            What's interesting is that Exarchs probably also see regular humans and Mages living in the Phenomenal world as merely echoes to shape, manipulate and annihilate to suit their goals. It's happening to us too.

            Also, maybe that gasoline spirit has no problem with the gasoline being used, as that's essentialy the can's purpose. Would that mean that the spirit changes into a different one with different resonance without being consumed by another spirit/becoming magath?
            Last edited by Prometheus; 02-26-2017, 08:06 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Prometheus View Post
              What's interesting is that Exarchs probably also see regular humans and Mages living in the Phenomenal world as merely echoes to shape, manipulate and annihilate to suit their goals. It's happening to us too.
              I disagree. The Seers might do so, just as mystagogues do; seeing "lesser" minds as inherently inferior and incapable of grasping higher truths and real feelings like them.

              The Exarchs, though, are Platonic Truths. They don't need deception. They know precisely what they are. They have no guilt about it, no shame, no moderation. The Exarchs see you as precisely as what you are and it makes no difference to them.

              Originally posted by Prometheus View Post
              Also, maybe that gasoline spirit has no problem with the gasoline being used, as that's essentialy the can's purpose. Would that mean that the spirit changes into a different one with different resonance without being consumed by another spirit/becoming magath?
              A gasoline spirit may want fuel burned, but only because more demand means more supply and a persistent creation of gasoline. If it could just endlessly have gasoline made without ever being destroyed, it'd prefer that to the alternative because more gasoline means more resonance means more essence.

              Whether the slumbering spirit of a burned gasoline mass becomes a spirit of smoke is another story.

              It also doesn't resolve the goetia problem.

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              • #22
                How other supernaturals are treated by Mage society stands in direct correlation to the backlash if they are mistreated. Vampires and Werewolves getter better treatment because their own societies will raise hell if they aren't and it isn't worth the trouble Mages get.
                For Prometheans who stand alone...this means they are screwed.
                ​All I can suggest is that you try to find a way to make it interesting for the player. Give him the sense of struggling against the man and the occasional chance to stick it to the man, even if it's just the occasional good one liner. If he gets to bloody the occasional nose without the whole Consillium going against him, so much the better.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                  That's where I think different biases might sort of balance things out. Any supernatural being counts as a Sleepwalker, which makes them more capable of interacting with, understanding, and being useful to Mages. That alone probably means they can have a vote in the local Assembly unless it explicitly bars non-Mages. That seems unlikely to my mind, so they're probably at least legally equal in an Assembly and sought out by Mages.

                  At the same time, rare is the supernatural being who is not at least somewhat detrimental to those around them by incident. As such, I can't imagine the laws designed by Awakened and Sleepwalkers for Awakened and Sleepwalkers will be charitable to them.

                  In the end, really, there's no good way to be in cahoots with Mages if you aren't a Mage yourself. The solution is to stay as far away from them as possible.
                  ​I have no idea how other supernatural types view mages in 2e. But in 1e it was usually with extreme caution because they're considered especially unpredictable and dangerous. So staying away was the usual course. They are not called "Lightning People" by many supernatural types for no reason. Couple this with a mage's obsessions and Mage Sight that basically pings anything supernatural and the expected power level of mages in comparison to most other supernatural types and it's not a good situation for the non-mage supernatural to be hanging out with them on any sort of regular basis unless they understand they are and will be considered second class citizens by any mage worth a crap. Even the Free Council because humanity is their thing not other supernatural groups that are probably being used by the Exarchs in some way anyway. At best they would be curiosities and or mysteries to be examined and solved which is probably even worse for the poor supernatural then just staying away.
                  Last edited by Kumiko; 02-26-2017, 10:12 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 2ptTakrill View Post
                    How other supernaturals are treated by Mage society stands in direct correlation to the backlash if they are mistreated. Vampires and Werewolves getter better treatment because their own societies will raise hell if they aren't and it isn't worth the trouble Mages get.
                    Mages tend to ignore Werewolf and Vampire societies because of this, on an individual basis though there really isn't a whole lot of respect going in either direction.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                      Mages tend to ignore Werewolf and Vampire societies because of this, on an individual basis though there really isn't a whole lot of respect going in either direction.
                      ​Yes, it's a détente thing overall but individual dealings are very risky for both sides. Usually not for the Mage/Mages when they get curious and start to prepare for whatever their actual goal for the interchange is. Usually mages or at least midlevel or powerful mages aren't rash, and a calculating, curious and prepared detective like all mages make Colombo/Sherlock Holmes minor league and very dangerous for other supernatural groups to deal with far more often then not. Better to leave sleeping dogs lie.
                      Last edited by Kumiko; 02-26-2017, 10:37 PM.

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                      • #26
                        I think that in particularity, Prometheans case can be made over this nice sum up of Law about Robots.



                        Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
                        My Hubs - VtR 2E System Hacks, MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks

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                        • #27
                          Um. So the Tammuz player is upset that his Creayed is being treated as an object or mystery to be possessed instead of a Real Boy(tm)?

                          I... feel like this is probably the best example of Mages reinforcing the themes of another splat possible and everything is functioning as intended.

                          How are you spinning this situation to reinforce the pilgrimage? There is a lot of meat here. Play up relationships with individual NPCs instead of the broad group view (with group recognition being the payoff).

                          Also, the other PCs are going to determine a lot with this. If the Mage PCs are perpetually and publically treating the Tammuz like a person, then that will go a long way. I have a similar issue when I'm with a high functioning client that looks disabled, so everyone defers to me and asks me questions. I politely redirect them towards treating the client like an individual and it takes time and is a struggle, but it works.

                          Getting the PCs to treat the Tammuz like a person amd publically act like it (and determining what "acting like it" means) would be great fodder for the pilgrimage itself.

                          Maybe give the Tammuz a pet or retainer or someone with a disability and parallel how they are treated wuth how that person is treated.

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