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  • Originally posted by Heroofthemists View Post
    Discussing with my players we have a few issues with this idea.

    RAW - Characters may only spend Willpower to increase a Resistance Attribute used for Withstanding if they are aware of a spell being cast upon them.

    So can characters under effects of spells now spend WP to effectively neuter the mage? This would be ridiculous.

    Do we reassess when size change enters the field? Logically it follows you would if you do so for potency. A creature shifts and suddenly your Imago is reading size 5 as opposed to the new size of the creature. This would give a huge advantage to anyone who can easily change sizes.

    Just what we have thought of so far. Input would be appreciated.

    One of most hilarious ways to make Mages hate you is to pick Huge (or whatever it's called) Merit and use some subtle means (including magic) to look like old plain Size 5 Person. Potency 1000000000000000000000 single target nuke? Not working if your Size Factor is 1!

    EDIT
    Though seriously using shape changing magic to escape spells is legit tactic. And it's actually a mythological trope where magican duels often involved complicated game of "I turn into X which you counter by turning into Z which makes me turn into K which you counter by turning into..."
    Last edited by WHW; 03-02-2017, 05:06 PM.

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    • What's fairly funny about all of this is that despite being completely off topic, you all are doing an absolutely wonderful job at showing just how complex Mage is. Thus, you reinforce the advice given to the op.

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      • Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post
        What's fairly funny about all of this is that despite being completely off topic, you all are doing an absolutely wonderful job at showing just how complex Mage is. Thus, you reinforce the advice given to the op.

        The OP discussed learning and applying mage rules with new players while running a crossover and simultaneously dealing with the unique mechanics of other gamelines. Attempting this type of ST juggling, even without Mage in the mix, is difficult, and is not evidence of undue complexity or much else about Mage.

        Moreover, Mage has a fairly unique open-ended, creative magic system that can model almost anything. Some increased complexity and a small learning curve is an entirely expected and worthwhile trade-off.

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        • Originally posted by branford View Post


          The OP discussed learning and applying mage rules with new players while running a crossover and simultaneously dealing with the unique mechanics of other gamelines. Attempting this type of ST juggling, even without Mage in the mix, is difficult, and is not evidence of undue complexity or much else about Mage.

          Moreover, Mage has a fairly unique open-ended, creative magic system that can model almost anything. Some increased complexity and a small learning curve is an entirely expected and worthwhile trade-off.
          I do agree, but lets be honest, mate. Mage is not just a small learning curve. but that's what I like about it. I get rewarded for learning more and more about the system and it's applications, but to jump in a new player can just get the guide lines and go. Ten arcanes, with about five different purviews, and thirteen Practices. and you have make up all of your powers and craft the speicific rules for them. Where as other lines have power, rule block, go


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          • All these problems go away if withstand is just checked when a spell is cast...which is how i think i will run things. I foresee no weird interactions with matter/life spells that use durability/stamina vs stamina or if size is also continually checked then that too by doing so.

            It means if a mage casts a spell and it "fails" but it still counts against his limit, he can just cancel it if vs a single target and recast at a greater potency or if vs multiple targets where some have been affected then he still recasts against them but has to take spell control into account rather than maybe trying to lower his targets withstand rating via another spell or waiting 3+ seconds for his targets willpower to run out.

            Thinking on it and it might make spending willpower when you see somebody casting spells on you more powerful since this way its all or nothing but how many sleepers/supernaturals are really going to be aware when a spell is getting cast on them? Which is another topic maybe, what does being aware actually mean, does it mean you need mage sight? Surely wiggling your fingers in fake mudras to trick people into spending willpower isnt a thing?

            Do mortals know they are under an effect of a spell they werent aware was cast on them to allow them to spell willpower to increase withstand? Even if they are do they have one scene before they forget about it anyways?

            It just seems really silly if i try to turn a mortal who is aware (how?) into a frog for an indefinite duration and he spends willpower to withstand it he can cry "hoorah it didnt work" for 3 seconds before he turns into a frog on his next turn. Or that he changes into a frog but can become a human again for 3+ seconds by spending a willpower point (im sure he is probably aware he is a frog by now maybe?) and doing it daily for at least 3 seconds if he gets some sleep thats assuming he doesnt forget due to quiescence?



            Last edited by totalgit; 03-02-2017, 06:51 PM.

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            • Originally posted by totalgit View Post
              Do mortals know they are under an effect of a spell they werent aware was cast on them to allow them to spell willpower to increase withstand? Even if they are do they have one scene before they forget about it anyways?

              It just seems really silly if i try to turn a mortal who is aware (how?) into a frog for an indefinite duration and he spends willpower to withstand it he can cry "hoorah it didnt work" for 3 seconds before he turns into a frog on his next turn. Or that he changes into a frog but can become a human again for 3+ seconds by spending a willpower point (im sure he is probably aware he is a frog by now maybe?) and doing it daily for at least 3 seconds if he gets some sleep thats assuming he doesnt forget due to quiescence?
              A Sleeper targeted by a spell with a duration like being turned into a frog would probably be able to recognize that it's not his natural state of being so spending a WP to increase his Withstand enough to break the spell for a turn is perfectly reasonable. It doesn't really matter though if he's only able to do that once in a while, eventually the spell would unravel due to Dissonance anyway. Many spells aren't so subtle that the subject isn't aware they're under the effects of it, Pyschic Domination for instance, and could be resisted in this fashion temporarily.

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              • Quiescence Makes the sleeper recolor the events in his mind to a more mundane and believable series of events. But I believe In the Moment they're more or less aware of what's going on. The whole flight or fight response. and They'll remember the event later as that mad man who through fire or pull a "gun" on them. otherwise mortals are not even a threat as they actively ignore the danger around them.

                Read 299 Dissonance made manifest. I can image the spell breaking down eventually, as the Dissonance roll breaks down the spell. The horror of I'm trapped in a frog is kind of funny.

                At the end of a scene in which a Sleeper witnesses obvious
                Supernal magic, roll her Integrity as a dice pool, Withstood by
                the spell’s dots, the Rank of a Supernal entity, or a number set by
                the Storyteller for other magical phenomena. Dissonance against
                Demesnes is Withstood by the number of soul stones creating
                the Demesne. Multiple Sleepers do not roll more than once, but
                apply a dice trick to the roll in the same way as Paradox rolls.
                Dramatic Failure: The phenomenon is unaffected, and the
                Sleeper suffers a breaking point against Integrity.
                Failure: The phenomenon is unaffected.
                Success: If the roll achieves successes beyond the phenomenon’s
                Withstand rating
                So my next question would be what is the spell's withstand rating?


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                • The spell will only start to loose potency via Dissonance only if the person becomes a human in front of them tho right? Since that is an obvious display of magic. It wont start to loose potency if people just see a frog tho? I suppose the sleepers own integrity works too tho..

                  Speaking of Dissonance, it also doesn't mention a spell no longer affecting its target once its potency drops below their withstand rating. It merely says that it ends when all factors are min + 1 success.

                  Now Dave's said how things work and so while i can argue about it storytellers/gm/dm's have been changing things to suit their games since forever and i know its within my rights to run it however i want, I was just pointing out that within the text it's never stated or hinted at that his explanation is how it works. His explanation really needs to be part of the FAQ i think and also explain the odd interactions with the spells mentioned above.
                  Last edited by totalgit; 03-02-2017, 07:35 PM.

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                  • So my next question would be what is the spell's withstand rating?

                    Withstood by the spell’s dots
                    I assume this means highest rating Arcana used and not all dots for combined spells or spell with added Arcana..

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                    • I believe the frog man would act as a witness to his own transformation


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                      • Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                        I was just pointing out that within the text it's never stated or hinted at that his explanation is how it works.
                        Well, I mean, this is precisely what's been a matter of contention, since other people think it's what the rules clearly state, so you're re-stating an claim, not pointing something out.

                        His explanation really needs to be part of the FAQ i think and also explain the odd interactions with the spells mentioned above.
                        Absolutely - given that there's such a diverse range of interpretations, a specific clarification with some examples (ideally including the spells that are really bothering people) would be excellent.

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