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Ghost Gate Query

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  • Ghost Gate Query

    A thought on Ghost Gate, in particular the Reach version: Does the variant with additional Reach permanently shift the target into Twilight? If so, when used as an attack, it seems a spectacular "I win" button when facing up against anyone who doesn't have the third dot of Death or equivalent powers, stranding them in death-attuned twilight with no possibility of return and cancelling just about everyone's capacity to retaliate.


    "+1 Reach: The mage is able to transform her subject into the Twilight state without the use of the gate. All of her clothes and personal possessions turn into ephemera as she makes the transition."


  • #2
    Remember spell Duration. Reach to target without the gate, Reach again for Advanced Duration, Reach a third time and spend Mana if you're going for an indefinite effect, Reach a fourth time if you need to cast faster than ritual time, don't forget your casting dice penalty based on how long a duration you're going for (if you want it to last indefinitely that's -10), and it's going to eat a slot of Spell Control unless you burn Willpower to relinquish it, which has its own problems.

    If you can pull all of that off, then yes, the sucker is stuck in Twilight until somebody comes along capable of dispellation, and also you're kinda scary.

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    • #3
      I mean...spells have duration. If you make it so the spell has an indefinite duration, then I would say...yes. It does permanently* shift them into twilight, unable to escape unless someone dispels you or they manage to escape. Mages operate on that level of power. It also takes a lot of dice and luck to pull off an indefinite spell, though.

      *permanently in the sense that none of us will be around by the time the spell wears off, and probably not the guy in twilight, either.

      EDIT: whoops didn't see the above before posting. Basically said the same thing....
      Last edited by RomulusGloriosus; 02-27-2017, 07:05 PM. Reason: clarification

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      • #4
        1. They hardly have no possibility of return. Mages with Death 2 can detect their presence in their periphery, Ghosts can communicate and bargain with them for help, and so forth.
        2. As a direct target version, that spell is probably Withstood. I mean you're changing something pretty fundamental about someone, that kind of stuff runs up against Withstand.
        3. The spell is Duration-primary, so it's somewhat difficult to increase Potency high enough to make it work in many cases (I'd assume Stamina Withstand), so good luck when fighting a combat focused opponent.
        4. To use in combat (probably) requires some reasonably serious reach, such as instant casting, sensory range, the reach option, and probably switching primary factor to Potency. Even with a Rote, that still exceeds free reach and will cause Paradox.
        5. As far as containment spells go, it's pretty weak, you're also protecting the target from the attacks of any of your fellows, and Mages can still cast spells into and out of Twilight.
        6. It's possible that the spell's translation effect isn't Lasting when used with the Reach option (would probably want DaveB's opinion on that), which would mean you have other problems to deal with

        Also it's important to mention, how is it a "you win" button? I mean, perhaps I'm biased as many games don't really have that much combat, but what problem does that spell really solve? I mean sure, you can detain someone, but there are much better ways to do that, which don't render them ephemeral to the actions of most of your Cabal and capable of running away through walls.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by HerbertIsBestBert View Post
          3. The spell is Duration-primary, so it's somewhat difficult to increase Potency high enough to make it work in many cases (I'd assume Stamina Withstand), so good luck when fighting a combat focused opponent.
          I mean, it is pretty useful if you just need to get away. Shoving someone into twilight for a few hours - or even just a few minutes - while you book it in your getaway car is pretty efficient. But I guess the argument isn't whether or not it's useful, but whether or not it's an 'instant victory' button. Which it definitely isn't.

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          • #6
            My thought had been that the base version is duration on the gate, not on the movement, so it seems that the Reach version is going to permanently shift them across? Or am I missing something?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Darth Fanboy View Post
              My thought had been that the base version is duration on the gate, not on the movement, so it seems that the Reach version is going to permanently shift them across? Or am I missing something?
              It depends how you view the spell. Are you throwing them through a one-person gate then closing it behind them? Or are you submerging them in Twilight like a person in a diving suit, getting dragged back to the physical when the spell ends?
              I could see arguments for both, and let people do whichever they wanted with the spell.

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              • #8
                With the Gate is better for permanent stranding. A mage in our last game used it against an oncoming car, shunting the thing into Twilight. The duration is on the gate, there. Just like if you use a spell to open a door, when the spell ends, everyone who used the door does not get magically returned outside. In regards to backing this up, I think there has been someone ruling officially on the 'material objects are destroyed' part. If their existence as an object is finished, and not merely 'ephemeral until the duration runs out' then it stands to reason people who go through the portal are too.

                But the +Reach variant seems to rely on a more standard duration, 'you are in Twilight state as long as the spell lasts.'
                Last edited by nofather; 02-27-2017, 08:16 PM.

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                • #9
                  Yeah, the Gate is a permanent transition to Twilight (Duration determines the length of time the gate will remain open), the Reach option is not (Duration determines how long you remain in Twilight), imo.

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