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Hoping to get some help on Lasting

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Fortunatus View Post

    That's a really good question. Apparently, using Life to speed a plant's growth is not Lasting (see Accelerate Growth). Would using Time to do the same follow the same ruling, or would the growth just be a natural result of a lot of time passing artificially quickly? I have no idea, though my intuition is that Time is probably(?) supposed to have the same problem.
    Huh... I was going to say that I think the effect of the spell is to make the subject grow faster for the Duration, and that its state after the Duration was a natural consequence of having a faster growth rate during that time. But then the spell says "When the spell expires, the subject returns to its actual age." Weird. Though the fact that the spell's text specifies this makes it clear that it is an intentional exception to the general rule, and that without that clarifying statement the results of magically having your growth rate enhanced would normally be naturally Lasting. So we can probably tack "unless otherwise specified by the spell" onto the general rule and be fine.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by branford View Post
      Not all healing. Don't forget about the regeneration exception.
      It's worth noting that you can heal boxes of damage and still be missing fingers.


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      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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      • #18
        Originally posted by branford View Post

        Not all healing. Don't forget about the regeneration exception.
        I don't think of regeneration as healing, since for humans it's not natural. Although It is an interesting question what would happen if you give some one the ability to regenerate lost limbs like a lizard (like Dr. Connors from Spiderman) with Transform Life, and then dispel the effect.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
          I think the overriding idea is that the effects of magic are not Lasting, except when it wouldn't make sense otherwise (healing, damage, and similar effects), plus some explicit exceptions that are mostly about Matter spells being more permanent because of thematic reasons.
          I don't think this is the case. There is at least a consistent theme of the mundane consequences of a spell being naturally Lasting - see my fatal heart attack example, or the book's example of the flames remaining after a spell to create fire ends. The effect of the spell was to create fire without a catalyst, the flames themselves are a natural result of flammable things in the area having been in contact with fire.


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          • #20
            As a side thought, it's worth noting that Regeneration ban doesn't really stop Thyrsuses from healing people from these things - instead of using Life to do that, you use Spirits of healing. Spirit is probably the fastest way to get reliable, undispellable way of ressurecting people (through Ressurection Numina).

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Yossarian View Post

              Could it be said that Lasting generally applies to things that could conceivably (if not reasonably) happen naturally? Like, healing grievous wounds vs. regenerating limbs. You could, in theory, recover from a bullet wound to the head, but you couldn't regenerate a limb that got hacked off. Just on a cursory reading of the book, this kind of holds up...the exception being spells that have explicitly supernatural (Death, Spirit, etc.), which are bound to the CofD cosmology, so the given definition of "naturally" is fluid there.
              It certainly is fluid, given the text of Accelerate Growth, since living beings naturally grow. By the "only if it's natural" metric, would Regeneration then be Lasting if cast on a starfish?

              As far as I can tell, the reasoning is that Lasting is decided such that the RPG functions the way players generally expect an RPG to function (damage being generic health lost which can then be regenerated, while specific effects of damage like limb loss and blindness are subject to different rules, and so on). I hope I'm wrong on that.
              Last edited by Fortunatus; 03-06-2017, 05:41 PM. Reason: I got the spell's name wrong. [i]sigh[/]

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Yossarian View Post
                Could it be said that Lasting generally applies to things that could conceivably (if not reasonably) happen naturally? Like, healing grievous wounds vs. regenerating limbs. You could, in theory, recover from a bullet wound to the head, but you couldn't regenerate a limb that got hacked off. Just on a cursory reading of the book, this kind of holds up...the exception being spells that have explicitly supernatural (Death, Spirit, etc.), which are bound to the CofD cosmology, so the given definition of "naturally" is fluid there.
                If this is the case though, would regeneration spells be able to be made Lasting when cast on werewolves?

                Originally posted by Yossarian View Post
                That being said, there are (many) things that can't be made Lasting that you can do naturally -- raising an Attribute or Skill, for instance. I guess the caveat is things that are bought with XPs can't be Lasting, which is more of a meta reason.
                Honestly, a meta reason is more than enough for the purposes of this discussion. As I said, I'm more interested in figuring out what the rules are for now than why they are.


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                • #23
                  It might be that the Regeneration spell isn't Lasting even on beings that can naturally regenerate because it's not designed to utilize the natural regenerative capabilities (it doesn't make a limb regenerate as much as it makes a limb just grow). Rather, the regular healing spells could probably be used to regenerate limbs on beings capable of regenerating limbs.
                  Last edited by Tessie; 03-05-2017, 09:24 PM.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
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                  • #24
                    Quick one before going to sleep, so take it with a grain of salt because I didn't check the spells:

                    If the state that the spell directly imposes by itself could be represented by a Persistent Condition, or removing of one, the spell may not be lasting.

                    If a *consequence of the spell* creates condition, it's ok. But if *the spell* would be the condition, it's not. Ugh.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                      It might be that the Regeneration spell isn't Lasting even on beings thqt can naturally regenerate because it's not designed to utilize the natural regenerative capabilities (it doesn't make a limb regenerate as much as it makes a limb just grow). Rather, the regular healing spells could probably be used to regenerate limbs on beings capable of regenerating limbs.
                      That makes a lot of sense, actually.


                      Onyx Path Forum Moderator

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                        I don't think this is the case. There is at least a consistent theme of the mundane consequences of a spell being naturally Lasting - see my fatal heart attack example, or the book's example of the flames remaining after a spell to create fire ends. The effect of the spell was to create fire without a catalyst, the flames themselves are a natural result of flammable things in the area having been in contact with fire.
                        My list of examples was just that and not exhaustive, and your counter examples would all be "similar effects" in my view. They are things that wouldn't actually make sense for them to revert back once the spell end.

                        I understand regenaration is a special grey area where to many people it would make more sense for it to be Lasting, but it's still debatable and is explicitly called out.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                          My list of examples was just that and not exhaustive, and your counter examples would all be "similar effects" in my view. They are things that wouldn't actually make sense for them to revert back once the spell end.
                          The problem with this explanation is that it doesn't resolve my issue of the guidelines for what is or is not Lasting being too subjective. If anything "things that it wouldn't make sense to not be permanent" is even more open to interpretation than "things that have changed in the environment after the spell has ended", which is exactly what I don't want.


                          Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                          My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                          Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                          • #28
                            One spell that perplexes me most of all is Create Sympathy. It's Lasting by default (which already is unusual for a Making spell, but I can buy that) and the created Sympathy is still subject to fading just like naturally created Sympathy. But there's a Reach option that makes it permanent. I really don't get that. It's not how Sympathy works so why the hell would the spell be able to do that as a Lasting effect?


                            Bloodline: The Stygians
                            Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post

                              The problem with this explanation is that it doesn't resolve my issue of the guidelines for what is or is not Lasting being too subjective. If anything "things that it wouldn't make sense to not be permanent" is even more open to interpretation than "things that have changed in the environment after the spell has ended", which is exactly what I don't want.
                              Spell effect are by default not Lasting EXCEPT 1) They are explicitly said to be 2) It would defeat the purpose of the spell (meaning that the spell would be completely useless and not merely inconvinient or resource intensive to use) if the effect would revert after Duration ends. Couple that with differentiating effect and consequences. The consequences of spells are all Lasting. What reverts back if the specific and explicit effect of a spell.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                                Spell effect are by default not Lasting EXCEPT 1) They are explicitly said to be 2) It would defeat the purpose of the spell (meaning that the spell would be completely useless and not merely inconvinient or resource intensive to use) if the effect would revert after Duration ends. Couple that with differentiating effect and consequences. The consequences of spells are all Lasting. What reverts back if the specific and explicit effect of a spell.
                                How would a healing spell be completely useless if it weren't Lasting? Heal in combat to survive, then keep healed until hospital or other care can be obtained. That's useful, though inconvenient.

                                Edit: the point being that I don't think your criteria explain the healing-regeneration dichotomy well. Tessie seems closer to the point on that one.
                                Last edited by Fortunatus; 03-05-2017, 10:09 PM.

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