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  • Using Influence on itself

    Can spirit use Strengthen, Manipulate or Control Influence on itself to have effect similiar to Shielding Practice and force Clash of Wills with those uppity Spirit mages who want to rewrite it's nature?

  • #2
    The spirit would need an Influence over "spirits" to boost itself and force a clash of wills against direct Spirit magic. I doubt that's something a spirit below Rank 8 or 9 would posses.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by branford View Post
      The spirit would need an Influence over "spirits" to boost itself and force a clash of wills against direct Spirit magic. I doubt that's something a spirit below Rank 8 or 9 would posses.
      It would have Influence over it's own nature, which should be enough to protect oneself.

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      • #4
        A spirit is not the thing it's a spirit of.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Dark Archon View Post
          It would have Influence over it's own nature, which should be enough to protect oneself.
          Not necessarily. A spirit of fire, for example, is not made of fire - it's made of ephemera. So Strengthen Fire would have no effect on it, because it is not fire. A spirit of dogs might look like a dog, but it is not a dog - it is a spirit. So Strengthen Dog would not affect it because it's not a dog.


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          • #6
            Well, that's too bad, because it means that Master of Spirit can overwrite and redefine virtually every spirit under rank 6 on the fly, and spirit has no way to defend itself. Withstand with Rank is a joke.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Dark Archon View Post
              Well, that's too bad, because it means that Master of Spirit can overwrite and redefine virtually every spirit under rank 6 on the fly, and spirit has no way to defend itself. Withstand with Rank is a joke.
              Shape Spirit is Potency-primary and a four-dot spell that needs Inured to avoid counting as an Act of Hubris for any of its effects that aren't "heal this spirit of Potency points of lethal damage."

              Unless you feel like trying your luck using an Aimed Spell on something that needs to be absurdly specialized (when the entire deal with high-Rank spirits is that they stopped specializing to become what they are) to have its universally-applicable Defense sitting below eight or nine dice, that's three Reach out of two just on getting the spell to hit and last, to say nothing of what Scale Factors might be needed.


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              • #8
                A spirit wouldn't fare much better in a Clash of Wills, to be honest. Spirits are mostly helpless againts Spirit mages I'm ok with that.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  avoid counting as an Act of Hubris
                  Oh, woe is me, I can't find a Fate re-roll or Willpower point to throw 6 dice and avoid Wisdom loss! This is even more of a joke, even if you forget that "Every mage and every circumstance is different from a Wisdom standpoint."

                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  Unless you feel like trying your luck using an Aimed Spell on something that needs to be absurdly specialized (when the entire deal with high-Rank spirits is that they stopped specializing to become what they are) to have its universally-applicable Defense sitting below eight or nine dice, that's three Reach out of two just on getting the spell to hit and last, to say nothing of what Scale Factors might be needed.
                  One more Reach for the Master, Paradox from which is easily remedied by Mana and Dedicated Magical Tool. Scale is easily beaten by 10+ Master dicepool even before applying Yantras. Spirits are just non-threat to dedicated Adept and fully joke for a Master.

                  Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                  A spirit wouldn't fare much better in a Clash of Wills, to be honest.
                  Depends on that he would roll. I think Rank 4-5 spirits would be pretty ok with their 20+ dicepools against 10+ pools of Spirit mages.

                  Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                  Spirits are mostly helpless againts Spirit mages I'm ok with that.
                  I am most certainly not. You can't have them as antagonists, if Arcana 4 just makes them a non-threat.
                  Last edited by Dark Archon; 03-06-2017, 06:15 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dark Archon View Post
                    Oh, woe is me, I can't find a Fate re-roll or Willpower point to throw 6 dice and avoid Wisdom loss! This is even more of a joke, even if you forget that "Every mage and every circumstance is different from a Wisdom standpoint."


                    One more Reach for the Master, Paradox from which is easily remedied by Mana and Dedicated Magical Tool. Scale is easily beaten by 10+ Master dicepool even before applying Yantras. Spirits are just non-threat to dedicated Adept and fully joke for a Master.


                    Depends on that he would roll. I think Rank 4-5 spirits would be pretty ok with their 20+ dicepools against 10+ pools of Spirit mages.


                    I am most certainly not. You can't have them as antagonists, if Arcana 4 just makes them a non-threat.
                    So, you're upset that a Master level Spirit Mage dominates spirits? Masters are no joke, they're supposed to dominate everything that falls under the purview of their arcanum. The thing here is that, while yes, a Spirit mage is going to dominate spirits, not every mage has spirit as an arcana.

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                    • #11
                      All is dandy and fine until the Rank 4-5 spirits stop being sitting ducks and punching bags, and actually start retaliating. Like every self-aware being with notions of self-preservation do.

                      And then something like the idigam come to say hello...


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                      • #12
                        You can't use Willpower on degeneration rolls, nor should any ST allow spells to affect such rolls.

                        Ephemeral entities uses Rank + Influence for their Clash of Wills, meaning 10 is maximum for entities that doesn't have plot device powers. Oh, and if they clash when using Numina they only get to roll Rank since Numina doesn't have dot rankings.
                        There's a single exeption, though. Spirits may clash using Power + Finesse when resisting the Annihilate Spirit spell. But that's the only time a Rank 5 spirit can get more than 10 dice.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                          All is dandy and fine until the Rank 4-5 spirits stop being sitting ducks and punching bags, and actually start retaliating. Like every self-aware being with notions of self-preservation do.
                          And then they find out that they literally can't resist spells like Banishment, Bind Spirit and Shape Spirit, because Adept squarely neutralise Rank 4 and Master - Rank 5.

                          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                          And then something like the idigam come to say hello...
                          They are rank 4 to 5. No rank 6 Idigam in the entire Forsaken 2e book. Masters will just have Idigam serve them as personal playthings.

                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                          You can't use Willpower on degeneration rolls, nor should any ST allow spells to affect such rolls.
                          My mistake.

                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                          Ephemeral entities uses Rank + Influence for their Clash of Wills, meaning 10 is maximum for entities that doesn't have plot device powers.
                          But mostly they just don't get to Clash. They can't use Influences to protect themselves, so if they don't have a right Numina, every Adept can just lord over them with minimum preparation and effort.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dark Archon View Post
                            And then they find out that they literally can't resist spells like Banishment, Bind Spirit and Shape Spirit, because Adept squarely neutralise Rank 4 and Master - Rank 5.
                            So they never let mages approach them in the first place. Pretty much how every supernatural being defend themselves from mages.

                            Of course, they're fair game if a mage ever gets to them. And honestly, they deserve it if they allowed a big opening like that. It's like trying to fight a boxing champion in melee, when you can and should have picked up a gun.

                            They are rank 4 to 5. No rank 6 Idigam in the entire Forsaken 2e book. Masters will just have Idigam serve them as personal playthings.
                            Idigam in particular have this nice description in the Werewolf book:

                            "Both the Formless and Coalesced are immune to supernatural powers that would command them, master them, or reshape their abilities, whether from Gifts, rites, or the witchcraft of other beings. The idigam can be bound or forced into dormancy, but they can never simply be leashed like a dog and forced into obedience. Their ancient, ever-flowing Essence simply shrugs off any such attempts to chain them to docility."

                            A nasty surprise for any Spirit mage, to be sure.



                            MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                              So they never let mages approach them in the first place. ​Pretty much how every supernatural being defend themselves from mages.
                              I am really curious how could they manage it. Especially with that nasty need to feed on Essence regularly and mages better supernaturally good at opening every shadow they think keep Mystery inside.

                              Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                              Idigam in particular have this nice description in the Werewolf book:

                              "Both the Formless and Coalesced are immune to supernatural powers that would command them, master them, or reshape their abilities, whether from Gifts, rites, or the witchcraft of other beings. The idigam can be bound or forced into dormancy, but they can never simply be leashed like a dog and forced into obedience. Their ancient, ever-flowing Essence simply shrugs off any such attempts to chain them to docility."

                              A nasty surprise for any Spirit mage, to be sure.
                              Yeah, I didn't read that part. But that doesn't save them from being bound or forced into dormancy. Or being destroyed by barrage of Aggravated Shadow Screams.

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