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  • #16
    Originally posted by Michael View Post
    You're failing to engage with the essential activity: persuading other people to your cause. I mean, again, we're discussing a small group here. Why is your hypthetical person so unpopular with the people they regularly interact with that no one will listen to them?
    I mean, that could happen, but as I indicated that really is the point at which civil war breaks out. If your magi hate each other that much, then working together isn't really an option anymore.
    No, you're failing to -accomplish- the the essential activity. That's a completely different thing than not being engaged in it, and there are many kinds of roadblocks that could be in your way and some of them you might not be able to do much about much as is always the case in politics, lack of resources, unpopular modes of self-identification, ungrounded prejudice, personal grudges, etc.

    Look, I'm not denying that the FC holds equality in high regard, but its direct democracy approach runs the risk of failing to live up to its own ideals because of the risk of the rule of majority.
    Last edited by Mrmdubois; 03-14-2017, 03:24 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
      Look, I'm not denying that the FC holds equality in high regard, but its direct democracy approach runs the risk of failing to live up to its own ideals because of the risk of the rule of majority.
      I totally agree, with the caveat that if the particular Assembly recognizes this they can attempt to put in checks and balances specific to their Assembly, and that isn't unlikely given the studious nature of many Awakened and the fixation on fairness, freedom, equality and equitable treatment that the Free Council is known for.


      “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.” ~ Aristophanes
      "Virescit Vulnere Virtus" ~ Stewart Clan Motto

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      • #18
        In this case, the Assembly would be (of course) a majority of Free Council, but would be one of the local city governing bodies rather than (or rather, in addition to) the local consilium. My thoughts are that both of governing bodies exist (the Assembly and the Consilium) and that when the Consilium makes a ruling that isn't accepted by the party, sometimes they go to the Assembly for a second opinion (especially if said ruling burned their bridges with the Consilium).

        So, some more questions on this topic!

        Do you think that an Assembly might allow Sleepwalkers / Proximi a vote? Do you think because of how they work, their laws would be a lot more specific? Do you think that precedence would be less iron-clad and more 'varient based on circumstance'?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Jakondite View Post
          Do you think that an Assembly might allow Sleepwalkers / Proximi a vote? Do you think because of how they work, their laws would be a lot more specific? Do you think that precedence would be less iron-clad and more 'varient based on circumstance'?
          Absolutely, yes. Hell, they'd probably let Sleepers have a vote if they thought it was relevant and wouldn't run the usual risks that Sleepers pose to the Mysteries. Having FC Status 1 is prerequisite enough to vote. The problem comes with people who aren't Mages running up against roadblocks for raising their opinion to the same level as Mages who would naturally be considered the trusted and informed experts.

          In a place with a strong Assembly in contention with a Consilium they probably set up protocols for interaction between the two political bodies using official intermediaries.

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          • #20
            There's one part of the Assembly that hasn't been addressed yet, which is really strange because it's such a vital part of the Free Council's stability: the position of Syndic.

            They're the ones who rally the disparate voters of the Free Council into the political and social factions that allows for any semblance of unity amongst the Libertines, and ultimately they'll most likely be the ones that the oppressed or the minority approaches in order to garner support on their behalf. They're like 1 part senator and 1 part advocate, and they primarily try to upkeep the Supernal resonance of the Free Council to democracy, resistance, and human beliefs. That being said, they're also the most easily corruptible since their position is the closest they'll ever come to being in a true position of leadership and power, despite the fact that they only get one vote just like everybody else.

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            • #21
              IMO, the syndic position does not always have to be an official one. It "can" be equated to a party whip that gathers necessary votes for the passing of important bills, but they can also be just charismatic individual who bring water to their own mills, cabal leaders who speak and debates on behalf of their cabal, or just a local expert on a more esoteric and/or technical matter worth thorough research and discussion.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                Absolutely, yes. Hell, they'd probably let Sleepers have a vote if they thought it was relevant and wouldn't run the usual risks that Sleepers pose to the Mysteries. Having FC Status 1 is prerequisite enough to vote. The problem comes with people who aren't Mages running up against roadblocks for raising their opinion to the same level as Mages who would naturally be considered the trusted and informed experts.

                In a place with a strong Assembly in contention with a Consilium they probably set up protocols for interaction between the two political bodies using official intermediaries.
                This actually raises a pretty interesting question: There are far more Sleepwalkers out there than Mages. What's to keep a libertine (or a thearch) from flooding the Assembly with members of their cults and essentially buying a massive political bloc? I mean, yeah, it makes you a shitty person, but fucking the democratic process through ballot stuffing isn't something that history shows can be readily disincentivized. You only have to look as far as Roman politics to see this in action.

                There's this expectation among anarchists that communities having eyes on one another keeps them honest, but reality shows that the moment there is an advantage which can be exploited, it's just a matter of time before someone exploits it. Laws start out simple and clean and honest, and then some asshole exploits a loophole and the whole thing becomes a clogged, bureaucratic mess.

                Of course, you could require the Assembly as a whole to vote to admit new members, in which case you can exclude people who are obviously suspicious, but that just means this strategy requires more duplicity and a bit more effort, that's all.

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                • #23
                  Wasn't there something about having to be a member of Assembly for at least a year before you get to become a Voter?

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                  • #24
                    Like I said, all that does is add a time delay. It makes it something you do as a part of a long-term plan, rather than in a hasty panic. The result is the same.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                      What's to keep a libertine (or a thearch) from flooding the Assembly with members of their cults and essentially buying a massive political bloc?
                      Nothing. If you can lead a massive group of people into an Assembly, then yeah you gain the leadership of the Assembly. The broader question is how exactly you're controlling your political bloc? The other FC are going to be violently unhappy if they're all your mind dominated thralls and presumably they're also going to expect those new voters to fully participate in the Assembly as well. What are you offering your cult that makes you so special?


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                      • #26
                        Good point. The Free Market of cult leadership definitely helps. I imagine getting into a bidding war between Mages is a terminally stupid idea, though.

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