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  • Oneiros questions

    So, the Oneiros can be thought of as the individual soul/mind of a particular person (as the Temenos is the soul/mind of humanity).
    1. What is the exact interaction of the Oneiros itself and dreams?
    2. What influence does the conscious mind of a person have on their Oneiros at the time? If someone is doing something (talking to someone, working on a task, in a fight, etc.), does this impact their Oneiros in real time?
    3. What impact does changing the Oneiros or its Goetic inhabitants have upon a person's mind?
      1. The various Daemons/Goetia are supposed to correspond to facet of the person's mind, but what happens if something "replaces" one of them?


    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

  • #2
    1. It doesn't have one, except that...

    2. What a person is currently thinking plays out in the central realm within their Oneiros. For mages meditating into their own souls, this looks like a stilled, quiet reflection of their own concept of "arrival", because that's what they're thinking about while meditating. Go into someone else's Oneiros, though, and it'll reflect whatever's going on with them at the present moment, in real time. Their thoughts when they're awake, and their dreams when they're dreaming.

    3. Kill a thought, and the thought will die. Summon a Goetia out of someone's soul, and they lose the part of themselves it represents while it's out. The Oneiros is so fast-changing that it "heals" though the process of change; you can devestate a person's dreams, but when they wake up, that realm will vanish to get replaced by their waking thoughts anyway. You can dig into the Oneiros' far reaches and perform Inception-style actions; lock a memory's representation away in an Oneirc vault, and the victim will repress it.


    Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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    • #3
      1. Most people would say the Astral consists of three layers: Oneiros, Temenos and Anima Mundi/Dreamtime. The Astral is actually composed of four layers. The personal dream plane (literally your dreams) is the first layer which is completely skipped during Astral journeys. The Oneiros holds the memories and other parts of yourself that you will dream about, and then it also contains the memories dreams that have been dreamt.

      2. I don't know. I'd guess that if you visit the parts of the Oneiros that is relevant to the current situation of its owner you'd feel some effects from how the situation affects the owner. The newly forming memory of the developing situation would probably be the most dramatic since you'd see the creation of that memory in real time. If you visit the part that relates to any addictions/substance abuse you might see some development if the owner is trying out a new substance or is "relieving" a difficult withdrawal. If you're in the part relating to beliefs (political, religious, whatever) you should be able to see some shifts if the owner has a revelation that changes their belief in something.
      These are all guesses, though. I just think they sound logical.

      3. A classic Mastigos practice (there's at least one legacy based around the concept) is to summon Goetia relating to the mage's vices. As long as they are summoned to the material the mage no longer has to deal with that particular vice.

      3.1. That would be interesting. At least for some duration. I have a vague memory about reading that important Goetia reform themselves some time after they're destroyed. That could mean that the replacement of one Goetia might slowly evolve to become the same Goetia that was replaced. Or maybe it affects the character to such a degree that it becomes self sustaining and becomes a natural part of the Oneiros. Or maybe a mix of the two. I really don't know, but I think it's great fodder for an Obsession. What better way to find out than experimenting on your own Oneiros to see the effects first hand?

      Edit: Take Dave's words before mine. He's definitely the expert on the Astral. Not only in the community but probably in OPP as well.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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      • #4
        What is the exact interaction of the Oneiros itself and dreams?
        In the Oneiros of a sleeping person, you can see their dreams play out. Like how in the Oneiros of an awake person, you can see their surface thoughts drone on and on. So you could enter dreams through the Oneiros, although I don't know if the reverse is possible for mages. Beasts seem to blur the line considerably more.

        What influence does the conscious mind of a person have on their Oneiros at the time? If someone is doing something (talking to someone, working on a task, in a fight, etc.), does this impact their Oneiros in real time?
        The Oneiros is the unconscious (deeper, from a certain perspective), so I doubt the waking world will have real-time effects on it. Unless what someone is doing at the time is so significant that it marks the unconscious.

        What impact does changing the Oneiros or its Goetic inhabitants have upon a person's mind?
        Remove the Goetia representing a quality from the Oneiros, and the person no longer has that quality. For instance, pulling out your daimon (Goetia of self-improvement or something, I believe?) removes your ability to spend Experiences. Summoning your Vice into the physical world liberates you from your Vice, as long as the summoning spell persists.

        The various Daemons/Goetia are supposed to correspond to facet of the person's mind, but what happens if something "replaces" one of them?
        You are essentially brainwashing the guy, for good or ill.

        EDIT: Ninja'd by the official word! Dave is not just an expert - he's the developer of the game, so his words are the closest thing to canon outside the written materials.


        MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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        • #5
          So, what would happen in the following situations:
          • Other Goetia are brought in or created in a person's Oneiros.
          • Someone "modifies" the existing Goetia (pretty sure it is the mental manipulation, as stated above).
          • An Acamoth eats/replaces one of a person's Goetia or their Daemon.
          • Another type of Ephemeral eats/fuses with their Goetia (provided that is possible).
          • A Demon (Unchained variety) uses Ephemeral Cover (if possible) and tries to replace one of the Goetia (likely nothing, since even if they look like the Goetia, they aren't it per se).


          Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
          Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

          Comment


          • #6
            Well I'd mostly assume in all of those cases, for the duration in which the Goetia (or other entity mimicing the abilities of a Goetia) is present, the person's mind would be influenced as a result of this.

            I had your third example as a plot hook in my last game. An Acamoth invaded a Mage's Oneiros and corrupted his Daimon.
            He was something of a recluse, so he didn't notice and nobody else noticed the changes, and his interests in Spirits slowly shifted into more morbid territories.
            Resulting in him vivisecting Werewolves.
            Last edited by HerbertIsBestBert; 03-18-2017, 08:48 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
              2. What a person is currently thinking plays out in the central realm within their Oneiros. For mages meditating into their own souls, this looks like a stilled, quiet reflection of their own concept of "arrival", because that's what they're thinking about while meditating. Go into someone else's Oneiros, though, and it'll reflect whatever's going on with them at the present moment, in real time. Their thoughts when they're awake, and their dreams when they're dreaming.
              I've been having a discussion with my Storyteller regarding "what happens in the Oneiros when the owner isn't there" for months now, so thanks for the answer to this!

              That does still leave the "what happens to Goetia who aren't involved in/represented by anything happening in the central realm" question, though.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Juhn View Post
                That does still leave the "what happens to Goetia who aren't involved in/represented by anything happening in the central realm" question, though.
                Nothing, they continue to operate in their subrealms in the Oneiros.

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