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Netflix Iron Fist TV series is great Adamantine Arrow story

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  • Netflix Iron Fist TV series is great Adamantine Arrow story

    It's a story about kung-fu warrior being taught in 'Lost City', now using magical powers to fight for his Honor in New York city. I only try to crack if Kunlun is more one of 'Atlantises', still inhabited place of Time Before or just one of 'artificial dimensions', sustained by long lost magic. What's your take on it?



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  • #2
    It's certainly an Adamantine Arrow story, "great" might be pushing it too far.

    Kunlun as both an artificial Dimension a remnant of a Time Before is, I think, the most interesting; Shou-Lao the Undying could be an Ochemata of the Archmaster that created Kunlun and was destroyed by another Archmaster, it is still constrained by the Pax Arcana and that explains why it uses a proxy in the form of the Iron Fist.


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    • #3
      Spoilers

      I'd say its an Arrow to Apostate story actually, since he breaks every oath he has taken. First to defend K'un Loa, then poverty, then chastity, and finally to destroy the Hand.

      ​I really wanted to like this series, but between the pervasive white male privilege and drawn out story it just fell flat to me. I almost threw the laptop across the room when Danny told Davos he got to drive without a license because he was rich. I thought the truest moment for a character that has spent 15 years in warrior monk training was when he smacked the crap out a kid for disrespecting him in the dojo.
      Last edited by ckobbe; 03-19-2017, 07:11 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ckobbe View Post
        I'd say its an Arrow to Apostate story actually, since he breaks every oath he has taken. First to defend K'un Loa, then poverty, then chastity, and finally to destroy the Hand.
        For me it's more he tried to reconnect Arrow ethos in his homeland. He instead start to be convinced by Meachums to become Silver Ladder ( or even Seers, I'm ambivalent on their Mage interpretations for now ), but he get's he cannot and looks lost. ( I'm on episode 4 right now, after his return to Rand Industries. )

        Originally posted by ckobbe View Post
        ​I really wanted to like this series, but between the pervasive white male privilege and drawn out story it just fell flat to me.
        Mage, by setting, is all about privilege. In all colors of skin, as Awakening reveals in anyone, but choices Danny makes are frequent for the sorerers - 'You have all money and influnaces in the world - What do you do with that?'


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        • #5
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          Mage, by setting, is all about privilege. In all colors of skin, as Awakening reveals in anyone, but choices Danny makes are frequent for the sorerers - 'You have all money and influnaces in the world - What do you do with that?'
          This misses the point of the problem with "the white male billionaire savior learns and masters exotic mystic Asian Kung-Fu-ery to fulfill his saviorhood" so hard. The problem here is that the show is basically white colonialism/imperialism poorly revived.

          A less esoteric explanation of this is that Danny needs to shut the fuck up when talking to Colleen, because every time he opens his mouth, it's basically condescension non-stop.

          Mage's characters have problems, but cultural appropriation in the vein of "White Guys are just da best, they so master everyone else's shit*" is not one inherently baked into the character type, and really comparing the two is an apple to orange problem, except one apple is a fictional vehicle for meaning and the other orange is supremely problematic racial and cultural power shitbaggery.

          *And then there's the entire "Asians are all mystic Kung-Fu Masters" bullshit, which while not as bad as it could be is still pretty fucking bad.
          Last edited by ArcaneArts; 03-19-2017, 02:24 AM.


          Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
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          • #6
            Also, Iron Fist has a 17% on Rotten Tomatoes. Good it sure as fuck isn't.


            Sean K.I.W. Steele, Onyx Path Freelancer
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            • #7
              Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
              This misses the point of the problem with "the white male billionaire savior learns and masters exotic mystic Asian Kung-Fu-ery to fulfill his saviorhood" so hard. The problem here is that the show is basically white colonialism/imperialism poorly revived.
              Diamond Orders are all about colonialism - they are direct descendants of Alexander and Roman Empires. More, they COLONIZED whole world with their magical ideology, with - you guessed it - white people mages conquering native mages! It's a reasons why Free Council exists in first place, as answer to very this colonialism. More to the show - Alexander Empire exchange in Mage made trope 'white guy learning kung-fu and magic' official creation of Arrows as Order!

              I'm not agreeing myself with this ideology - but it's official history of Diamond Orders. They are CONQUERORS. ( And on beginning were mostly European or Middle Eastern mages). It's a large beef of Free Council with them.

              So yeah - you can not like the show, but it's totally Adamantine Arrow as Order series.
              Last edited by wyrdhamster; 03-19-2017, 07:42 AM.


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              • #8
                I've not seen the show, only know the source material. Everything I've heard about the show makes it seem bad, and the source material isn't that great to begin with, though one run was great.

                Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                A less esoteric explanation of this is that Danny needs to shut the fuck up when talking to Colleen, because every time he opens his mouth, it's basically condescension non-stop.
                To be honest, this sounds like a mage. Like in the Beast story Premeditation, the mage was condescending about what she is, something he is sure he knows better than her.

                Mage's characters have problems, but cultural appropriation in the vein of "White Guys are just da best, they so master everyone else's shit*" is not one inherently baked into the character type, and really comparing the two is an apple to orange problem, except one apple is a fictional vehicle for meaning and the other orange is supremely problematic racial and cultural power shitbaggery.
                And while cultural appropriation is not a mage thing, arguably, 'mages are just da best, they so master everyone else's shit,' is, though less glibly put. They are beings of magic, and at peak power, their magic dwarfs the magic of others.

                I think the appropriation thing is sort of up in the air considering the Supernal and whether it reflects upon the Fallen World or if humanity is sending it up there.
                Last edited by nofather; 03-19-2017, 03:46 AM.

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                • #9
                  Not gonna argue against the appropriation problem and that they should have made Danny Asian, because I agree with you on both, but
                  Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                  This misses the point of the problem with "the white male billionaire savior learns and masters exotic mystic Asian Kung-Fu-ery to fulfill his saviorhood" so hard.
                  You say that, but who is he the savior of? Except other white people, himself, and he and Colleen saving each other several times.
                  He isn't the savior of K'un Lun in the series (and mostly not in the comics, especially compared to the likes of the Thunderer or, more importantly, his daughter), just someone who fought for and got a job that is so shitty that in the comics at least those in the know do their darndest the keep the ones they like from getting it. Danny became the Iron Fist because he is expendable and at least good enough to do what those in power want him to do, not because he is some Chosen One come to lead the people to a new dawn. Which it seems the Series alluded to with Davos' and Danny's short conversation where neither was quite sure why Danny was chosen over Davos to face the Dragon.

                  Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                  Mage's characters have problems, but cultural appropriation in the vein of "White Guys are just da best, they so master everyone else's shit*" is not one inherently baked into the character type,
                  Similarly, what is he so good at that you get to claim him as an example of "White Guys are just da best"?
                  He explicidly sucks as an Iron Fist in the Series, and very pointedly doesn't disagree when Davos calls him the worst Iron Fist ever. And the only reason we don't know for sure that he isn't the best mundane martial artist in the MCU, that he isn't the best fighter among the Immortal Weapons, that isn't even the best Martial Artist in K'un Lun, is because the show hasn't had the chance to introduce the necessary characters from the comics yet.


                  ... which sucks, Marvel really fucked up by not making the Shang-Chi series first, and should have made far more characters than just Danny Asian. Like Black Widow, Hawkeye, Captain Marvel, Bruce Banner, Bucky, Doctor Strange, etc. could all have been Asian just as easily.

                  I really hope they do the Immortal Weapons Arc justice, and the last few episodes make me hopeful that they are able to to transform Danny into the humble and self aware goofball he is in the comics. Especially that scene towards the end with the Pizza in the Dojo, which shows him far different from how he behaved in the beginning.
                  To quote someone who described it better than I could, "This time packing a regular ass pizza, saying he wants to learn more than just what his father showed him. Then he says that, in response to Colleen not having any students left, she's a great teacher for downtrodden kids and he will set up a Rand Scholarship Fund to help with that. And then he admits that he has a whole lot left to learn about being The Iron Fist and that while he was raised to think he would become a weapon, he instead wants to be an inspirational light to those trapped in darkness.

                  And it is capped off with Claire pointing out how fucked up and violent Danny and Colleen have been and how they need some help, which they don't deny. "
                  Last edited by Joker; 03-19-2017, 05:05 AM.


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                  • #10
                    What he needs is what the character in the comics needed - Luke Cage as a best friend. Just like Matt didn't properly become Daredevil until the end of his first season, Danny takes the entire 13 episodes to start acting like his 616 self. Origin stories suck, that way.

                    But hey, Oliver Queen took four years to call himself Green Arrow on his show and still acts nothing like it.


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                    • #11
                      He wasn't Asian in the Comics and he shouldn't be Asian in the Show. Asians are not the Only Martial Artists and in fact they were not the First Martial Artists. If I remember correctly the Egyptians have that Honor about 5000 years ago. To say that he needs to be Asian is just as RACIST as not making him Asian in the comics. Your "OMG I am a Martial Artist so I must be Asian Bullshit" is just as big a pile and anything. If you don't like the fact that he isn't Asian then you must have disliked the comic and then it begs to question why you though the show would be any different.

                      Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                      What he needs is what the character in the comics needed - Luke Cage as a best friend. Just like Matt didn't properly become Daredevil until the end of his first season, Danny takes the entire 13 episodes to start acting like his 616 self. Origin stories suck, that way.

                      But hey, Oliver Queen took four years to call himself Green Arrow on his show and still acts nothing like it.
                      I absolutely Loath the TV show Green Arrow and stopped watching it half way through season One.
                      Last edited by Hardwire99; 03-19-2017, 05:53 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hardwire99 View Post
                        If I remember correctly the Egyptians have that Honor about 5000 years ago.
                        Not really. I mean, 'martial art' is a really fuzzy term and by that loose definition they've probably been around as long as humans.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Michael View Post

                          Not really. I mean, 'martial art' is a really fuzzy term and by that loose definition they've probably been around as long as humans.

                          Right but the Egyptian are the first recorded organized fighting style back in roughly 3400 BCE, as far as I can tell from multiple sources. That is commonly referred to as Tahtib which is Bow stick fighting style.

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                          • #14
                            I've never read the comics, so I have no reference for the source material, and my comments about Danny's privilege were explicitly not linked to reinterpreting him through the Mage Awakening eyes. I was just commenting on what frustrated me about the show. I think Finn Jones (the actor) did the best with a poorly and inconsistently written character. I don't know if the privileged mind set was intentional and set up as a growth arc by the writers, but I highly doubt it because our greek chorus character Claire has no problem pointing out others flaws and this one never comes up from her.

                            I don't have a problem with Danny being white, or even having come from money. Both of these could have been handled better by the writers without making Danny into an insufferably privileged twat. Everything about the character, as written, reflects someone who deep down believes everyone else should bend to his will because "hey I'm Danny Rand," which may be a great high Hubris/low Wisdom arc for a mage character, but kind of sucks for a character with his back story in the MCU.

                            ​Finally, to wyrdhamster and anyone else, I made the stupid assumption from your initial post that you had binged and seen the entire series, and didn't preface my reply with a spoiler tag, so apologies for that.

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                            • #15
                              Not seen the show but know the background material well;

                              A child, who sleeps fitfully, is lost in the mountains. The child is found by a Proximi monk, the guardian of an Iris which leads to a Chantry uninhabited by its Archmage, but inhabited by a Proximi line; martial artists connected to the path of the Aether. The child is raised there, and as a teenager, goes through a mystical experience, an astral journey to the corner of a cave in his own mind, a cave inhabited by the Archmage who constructed the Chantry, Shou-Lou the undying. In a mental battle that sweeps across the astral and the abyss to the Supernal, the young warrior fights the Dragon of Light and Fire, plunging his fists into its burning heart, and writing his name there. His vision ends and he has Awakened, having uncovered the Mystery of what happened to the Archmage; Shou-Lou ascended with his final omen being the patroning of a sleepwalker to Awakening through a martial test.

                              He prepares to leave the monastery, having learnt the truth there he seeks to perfect his skill and seek mysteries abroad, returning to a world that has forgotten him. He discovers that his family was wealthy, a curious thing, and joins the Adamantine Arrow as a matter of course, learning his soul has already been shaped by the Archmage into the form of a Perfected Adept

                              Meanwhile, in the Chantry, a Proximi treats with dark forces. Davos was the child's friend, they shared everything, but his Awakening unlocks a lust for power, friendship twisted into jealously. He pledges himself to an Abyssal Ziggurat and, discovered and attacked by the Proximi, flees the Chantry. He chases the warrior across land and water, seeking his vengeance, obsessed with stealing the Awakening he was denied and combining it with his own to one day challenge Shou-Lou himself.

                              Hmmm. I might play that one day!
                              Last edited by Solar; 03-19-2017, 09:09 AM.

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