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What is the minimum practice needed to construct a subconscious?

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  • What is the minimum practice needed to construct a subconscious?

    I was daydreaming about a fight scene wherein a baddie (Mage) brings myself (Mage) and a friend (Vampire) into their subconscious. Gratuitous battle ensues. We win and the friend eats the baddie. We end up kicked out of her head and find that she has become mentally compromised. She has no subconscious! (Still has a soul and conscious mind though, which is just raw process and as such, very literal.)

    In my musings, I have Mind 3, max, as we were recently empowered. I felt guilty/curious, and as such, decided to help. What could I do to rebuild her subconscious? Do I have to wait until Mind 5 for the Making practice? Could I implant a 'seed' from my own mind and then perfect it with Mind 3?

    Just looking for thoughts.

  • #2
    What does it even mean to not have a subconscious?

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    • #3
      I'd initially think you'd need to Pattern their mind into having a subconscious, re-writing its nature.
      However, depending on how you view the Conscious and the Subconscious and their interaction, that might actually only require Weaving...

      It suddenly just occurs to me that a Mage with Patterning 4 could temporarily suspend someone's subconscious capacity.
      Or (and this is a LOT more interesting) rewrite someone's mind into having NEW levels of consciousness, or create bridges between them.

      Consider for instance, a bridge between the Conscious and the Subconscious, perhaps controlled by a Goetia of your own design.
      It would be able to look through your memories for you, and categorise all available information you have with regards to a topic into a dossier.
      Including information that you would likely have to actively spend time hunting for, or analysing in your memories.

      I'll bet this is a common subject of discussion amongst the Ascended Adepts.

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      • #4
        I vote for Patterning, but more for narrative purposes than thorough consideration. Have the mage start a new project (represented by a new Obsession); "How does one restore the subconscious?" This might have to follow another Obsession over "What is the subconscious?" This way you can gain Arcane Experiences from the pursuit, which can be used to buy Mind 4 that your mage currently lacks. Integration of the mechanics and narrative, I'd say.

        Of course, your mage can decide to go the 'easy' way, without delving into the intricacies of Mind, by doing what you just said with Mind 3 only; Weave a seed from your own subconscious and Perfect it into a complete one. This is going to have consequences, like say, the enemy mage now having a permanent sympathetic connection with you due to sharing your subconscious thoughts or something. Or maybe his and your dreams are connected, resulting in awkward nightly meetings. Or maybe the enemy mage now considers you a friend for some reason, and is prone to help you out. This is a good thing... except that now his friends suspect that you brainwashed him, and now are pissed. This in turn shows how careless displays of power often have unforeseen consequences, which is one of Mage's themes.


        MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
          What does it even mean to not have a subconscious?
          Honestly, I don't know with a capital K. However, I consider it results in a person who, if they retain their memories, lose all value attached to those memories. So, they either become super literal and of the moment, or the become 'fresh', unattached to their previous self.

          One of my thoughts that in order to develop a subconscious, I'd have to teach her how to lie. If you can hide your thoughts from me, you can hide them from yourself. :P

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          • #6
            Originally posted by HerbertIsBestBert View Post
            I'll bet this is a common subject of discussion amongst the Ascended Adepts.
            It strikes me as a conversation that could easily overlap with mundane psychology but with far more reaching to older texts, given the acknowledgement of souls.

            Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
            Solid idea and cool seeds
            Agree with using it as an obsession.

            As for building a new subconscious out of a seed of my own, I feel it would result in a major personality change in the baddie, making them very similar to myself. A sympathy connection and dream meeting would be awesome.
            Last edited by Tabanese; 03-19-2017, 07:18 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tabanese View Post
              Honestly, I don't know with a capital K. However, I consider it results in a person who, if they retain their memories, lose all value attached to those memories. So, they either become super literal and of the moment, or the become 'fresh', unattached to their previous self.

              One of my thoughts that in order to develop a subconscious, I'd have to teach her how to lie. If you can hide your thoughts from me, you can hide them from yourself. :P
              Super literal is a description that sometimes appends to Autism. I'm not shooting down the idea, I think it's cool, but it has this interesting implication that perhaps Autistic people don't have a subconscious as a natural default to their condition (In the game, obviously not the case IRL).

              Anyway, moving away from that. I'd argue that the subconscious (At least the parts of it that aren't completely autonomous like what regulates breathing and heart beat) would naturally redevelop anyway. The Astral has a tendency to "heal" via change, an idea that becomes a belief that influences the behavior of a person forms a goetia that exerts itself on a person's actions even when they're not actively thinking of it. These can resurface as conscious, but frequently guide the person without conscious effort, religious strictures often act in this way for instance, or being hungry, etc.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by HerbertIsBestBert View Post
                Consider for instance, a bridge between the Conscious and the Subconscious, perhaps controlled by a Goetia of your own design.
                It would be able to look through your memories for you, and categorise all available information you have with regards to a topic into a dossier.
                Including information that you would likely have to actively spend time hunting for, or analysing in your memories.

                I'll bet this is a common subject of discussion amongst the Ascended Adepts.
                Your kind of describing a Memory Palace, but one where the mnemonic process is done for you by the Goetia.

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