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A hypothetical soul question

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  • A hypothetical soul question

    So, suppose I'm a Master of Death.

    I take a sleeper, remove their soul, put it in a soul jar. Then I take a mage, remove their soul, put it in a soul jar. Then I swap the souls.

    Now, we know being a mage is at least somewhat connected to the soul being altered in some way. So what happens? does the sleeper Awaken? Do they immediately jump to the original mages level? Become a sleepwalker? Stay asleep but gain some weird powers? See the supernal without an awakened soul to process it? And what happens to the mage? Do they unawaken (yes, we know what happens to a mage with no soul, but this is a mage with a sleeper's soul)? Involuntarily become a lich? Switch paths to whatever the sleeper would have awakened as?

    Or am I missing something and the actual answer is boring?

    (this just leads to other various questions- if I put a soul into a promethean, do they instantly undergo the new dawn? If I put a soul into a vampire, can they start feeling real emotions again? If I put a soul into a mummy, how many pieces will they find me in?- but that is perhaps getting away from my original question so hey)

  • #2
    Originally posted by Urbenmyth View Post
    If I put a soul into a vampire, can they start feeling real emotions again?
    Vampires still have their souls, so the beast will probably just claim the new soul.


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    • #3
      Humans with Awakened souls put into them might become Sleepwalkers, but this is never guaranteed. They may or may not have a better chance of Awakening in the future. Mages with Sleeper souls put into them slowly recover their Awakened might that they lost while soulless. Emphasis on 'slowly.'

      Of course, this is assuming that it's "only" the soul you're transplanting. There is an underlying assumption that while the numinous organ the Death Arcanum governs over is the soul as mages know it, there is more to the issue. Gnosis, for example, is often described as a "vessel" that contains and shapes the soul. (Or a scar that mutilates it, as some Banishers may claim)

      And then there are Reaper (and Lich) Legacies, whose Attainments may have stranger effects on the victims of soul theft and the stolen souls' recipients.

      All of these might be a topic for later supplements, maybe Signs of Sorcery if they find the space. Interaction with other supernaturals will likely be covered in the upcoming Crossover Chronicles.

      Until then, my personal taste is to have Prometheans not suffer Disquiet or Torment with a soul in them... but every time they would provoke either, it provokes Dissonance to erode the soul-binding spell and Quiescence to gaslight Sleepers. Vampires do feel emotions. It's just that predatory and survival-instinct ones overshadow them in most cases, and the long nights may leave them jaded to the human experience. Maybe the Beast inside them is tamer while the soul is bound on them, or the Beast gobbles up the new soul. Mummies already have souls, albeit fragmented and liquified. They call them Pillars. Putting another soul in them will be exactly like having two souls, which doesn't do a thing as far as I know. Unless the mage breaks the soul down into Pillars before grafting them in.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by Urbenmyth View Post
        Or am I missing something and the actual answer is boring?
        I believe that's the answer. Souls can be swapped as you like.

        (this just leads to other various questions- if I put a soul into a promethean, do they instantly undergo the new dawn?
        No. You probably can't attach it in a useful way. It's likely the equivelant of a walking soul jar. Also, the New Dawn is a bit more involved than simply having a soul, it also includes rewriting reality on a fairly major scale which simply attaching a soul probably wouldn't do.

        If I put a soul into a vampire, can they start feeling real emotions again?
        They already feel real emotions.


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        • #5
          So, it seems the answer is "Nor very much happens, really"?

          Ok, I will look forward to the crossover chronicles and until then feel vaguely sad my mage can't fix all the World Of Darkness' problems by just relocating people's souls willy-nilly.

          (Also I may have missed a change between first ed and second ed vampire, oops)

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          • #6
            A mage can't solve the world's problems, but he sure can solve his ones. Or those of his friends. One of Mage's themes is, after all, having power/knowledge and what to do with it.


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            • #7
              I thought that putting a soul into a Promethean results in a firestorm...

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
                I thought that putting a soul into a Promethean results in a firestorm...
                That sounds about right.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
                  Vampires still have their souls
                  Do they? If we're using what Mages call souls as the baseline, that vanishes the instant someone dies, and vampires who are raised long after their death - be it by Embracing a corpse or a Strix having a laugh - don't differ in any noticeable way from any other vampire.

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                  • #10
                    They do.

                    If it ever left, vampire magic brings it back.

                    Mages able to do such things would be able to see that a vampire has its soul as well.
                    Last edited by nofather; 04-12-2017, 09:45 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Related- is there any mechanical effect at all to having a soul that isn't yours? Or will any soul do?
                      While it would probably be waiting for the crossover chronicle- just in case, are there any rules or hints on what happens if you give a sleeper a soul tainted by the supernatural (a vampires, a changeling?) or that strictly speaking isn't human at all (a werewolf's, a beast's?)

                      (i would assume that "Sever the awakened soul" can do other supernatural's souls)

                      For that matter, do animals have souls?

                      (Also, I am starting to look alarmingly like a reaper trying to crowd-source their Legacy, there's an arguably even worse story idea then the soul switching one)
                      Last edited by Urbenmyth; 04-12-2017, 09:58 AM.

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                      • #12
                        It depends on the soul and how it's done.

                        When an idigam rips the soul out of you, they can put a spirit in its place, making a Claimed. They could also put another soul in its place, and give the person a Persistent Madness Condition.

                        It might be in the crossover chronicle, but it might appear in their own books. Souls aren't solely the domain of mage.

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                        • #13
                          The answer's a resounding "Maybe". There's no mechanical guidelines on the effects of having a new soul.

                          Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          They do.

                          If it ever left, vampire magic brings it back.

                          Mages able to do such things would be able to see that a vampire has its soul as well.
                          Does it? Isn't it supposed to be one of the big questions of the setting? Aren't vampires meant to be left questioning if they're the same person or just a good simulacrum?

                          I mean, a reaper could outright steal someone's soul, then let a vampire turn them, just to see the effects. That's a very Ordo Dracul thing to do.

                          Guess it's something that'll get answered in the Crossover Chronicle.

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                          • #14
                            Vampires probably have something that fills their soul slot (see VtR 2E's section on Diablerie), but whatever they have (whether it's their original soul but changed, or something new altogether) is very different from a normal human soul.

                            Mages are the only supernaturals that have souls close enough to human souls that they can be "easily" swapped with no lasting consequences if done correctly. Other soul equivalents has no rules for soul swapping yet, but if it's possible it'd probably have major consequences for both donor and recipient.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                              Does it? Isn't it supposed to be one of the big questions of the setting?
                              No.

                              From first edition's core book on, there's been no question that vampires in Requiem have souls. It's constantly remarked upon from an in-world view and out, there's many abilities that shape or alter their souls, and abilities that allow them to work with the souls of others.

                              Aren't vampires meant to be left questioning if they're the same person or just a good simulacrum?
                              No. That was a possible alternative brought up by someone who didn't like the idea that people would choose to become a vampire. If the game is about questioning anything, it would be their humanity. The existence of their soul is not in question.
                              Last edited by nofather; 04-12-2017, 11:10 AM.

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