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  • #16
    The Wyrd doesn't look like a jealous god like the Machine is, so I suppose Hedge ghosts can be familiars if they want.

    Of course, as all things are in a Mage game, being able to do it rarely equates being safe to do it... Story hooks!


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    • #17
      I don't know if a dev or writer has clarified, but it seems to me the most obvious problem of trying to have an Angel as a familiar would be that there is no Arcanum that corresponds to Angels. Hedge Ghosts would most likely be perfectly viable familiars by using a Fate and/or Death variant of the Familiar spell, depending on what Arcanum/Arcana governs Hedge Ghosts.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Tessie View Post
        I don't know if a dev or writer has clarified, but it seems to me the most obvious problem of trying to have an Angel as a familiar would be that there is no Arcanum that corresponds to Angels. Hedge Ghosts would most likely be perfectly viable familiars by using a Fate and/or Death variant of the Familiar spell, depending on what Arcanum/Arcana governs Hedge Ghosts.
        Prime + Spirit was once suggested as "stopgap" rules by Dave a long time ago. I've heard that he changed it to some other pair, but can't recall it now - was it Prime + Fate?

        Anyways, seems that Prime is many people's go-to Arcanum for dealing with the Machine's phenomena.


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        • #19
          I'd think it would be Prime + Forces for Angels.

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          • #20
            I don't know about either of those. Prime is primarily used for Supernal magic. The times Prime is able to affect other types of magic are exceptions (often with at least some sort of justification). And Forces is a Gross Arcanum. There's nothing that forbids Gross Arcana from governing ephemeral entities, but I like the divide. It reinforces the difference between Gross and Subtle Arcana.
            And by not having any governing Arcana we end up with a "frequency" of Twilight that mages can't readily access. That makes it more interesting, imo, and supports the notion that Twilight "frequencies" don't necessarily have to correspond to any Arcana, meqning there can potentially be an unlimited amount of Twilight "frequencies" instead of five or ten.
            But since we don't have any rules that even approaches the subject it's just up to each individual table to run it however it suits them best.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Tessie View Post
              I don't know about either of those. Prime is primarily used for Supernal magic. The times Prime is able to affect other types of magic are exceptions (often with at least some sort of justification). And Forces is a Gross Arcanum. There's nothing that forbids Gross Arcana from governing ephemeral entities, but I like the divide. It reinforces the difference between Gross and Subtle Arcana.
              And by not having any governing Arcana we end up with a "frequency" of Twilight that mages can't readily access. That makes it more interesting, imo, and supports the notion that Twilight "frequencies" don't necessarily have to correspond to any Arcana, meqning there can potentially be an unlimited amount of Twilight "frequencies" instead of five or ten.
              But since we don't have any rules that even approaches the subject it's just up to each individual table to run it however it suits them best.
              Yes, but Prime is also the Arcana that governs lowercase-t truths, in the form of occult symbolism. And despite what self-proclaimed cirtics of Demon and GMC say, angels are manifestations of such occult physics and arcane laws that underlie the universe, in a way different from but similar to how Supernal symbols define the world.

              Of course, the analogy isn't completely one-to-one, like ghosts are to Death for instance, which is where the conjunctional Arcana come in. The angel's frequency of Twilight would then be governed by conjunctional pairs of Arcana, a concept which is something regular mages are unfamiliar with.

              It is also possible that each angel and their supporting Infrastructure lie on different conjunctional pairs. A time-traveling device and its guardian angel would be Prime + Time, while an angel who disorients people from looking too closely at that building's basement would be Prime + Mind. This makes God-Machine phenomena something mages can potentially tackle, but with much more difficulty and obscurity than the clear-cut phenomena of the Supernal Worlds that they're so accustomed to. Which fits the theme of the Fallen World itself being the greatest source of Mysteries.


              Returning back to Hedge Ghosts, I imagine that if they do turn Twilight upon entering Ironside, their frequency of Twilight would be attuned to either Fate or Mind if we assign only a single Arcanum, and both if they assign a conjunctional pair.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                I don't know about either of those. Prime is primarily used for Supernal magic. The times Prime is able to affect other types of magic are exceptions (often with at least some sort of justification). And Forces is a Gross Arcanum. There's nothing that forbids Gross Arcana from governing ephemeral entities, but I like the divide. It reinforces the difference between Gross and Subtle Arcana.
                And by not having any governing Arcana we end up with a "frequency" of Twilight that mages can't readily access. That makes it more interesting, imo, and supports the notion that Twilight "frequencies" don't necessarily have to correspond to any Arcana, meqning there can potentially be an unlimited amount of Twilight "frequencies" instead of five or ten.
                But since we don't have any rules that even approaches the subject it's just up to each individual table to run it however it suits them best.
                Forces is basically the Arcana of physics and Godmachine Angels are basically Qantum Computers so I thought the combo of Prime + Forces made sense.

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                • #23
                  As far as I know there is no Angel specific frequency, just like there is no Gulmoth twilight. I have no idea where I found it but it might be some of those Dave's statements that you can find on very perilous Anima Mundi journey at a every second Solstice.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                    Yes, but Prime is also the Arcana that governs lowercase-t truths, in the form of occult symbolism. And despite what self-proclaimed cirtics of Demon and GMC say, angels are manifestations of such occult physics and arcane laws that underlie the universe, in a way different from but similar to how Supernal symbols define the world.

                    Of course, the analogy isn't completely one-to-one, like ghosts are to Death for instance, which is where the conjunctional Arcana come in. The angel's frequency of Twilight would then be governed by conjunctional pairs of Arcana, a concept which is something regular mages are unfamiliar with.

                    It is also possible that each angel and their supporting Infrastructure lie on different conjunctional pairs. A time-traveling device and its guardian angel would be Prime + Time, while an angel who disorients people from looking too closely at that building's basement would be Prime + Mind. This makes God-Machine phenomena something mages can potentially tackle, but with much more difficulty and obscurity than the clear-cut phenomena of the Supernal Worlds that they're so accustomed to. Which fits the theme of the Fallen World itself being the greatest source of Mysteries.


                    Returning back to Hedge Ghosts, I imagine that if they do turn Twilight upon entering Ironside, their frequency of Twilight would be attuned to either Fate or Mind if we assign only a single Arcanum, and both if they assign a conjunctional pair.
                    Yeah I could see Fate + Mind to deal with them and their frequency of twilight, which I could see any Changeling using Phantom Glory to enter twilight entering that frequency of twilight instead of the Ghostly one.

                    So requiring Fate + Mind would make them rarer and more exotic as familiars then say ghosts, goetics, or spirits as it requires two arcana to precieve them even never mind making them a familiar.

                    And maybe mind + fate to harvest glamour into your pattern like Spirit Arcana can harvest essence.

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                    • #25
                      That gives me an idea that maybe Life + Death could harvest Vitae into one's pattern.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
                        That gives me an idea that maybe Life + Death could harvest Vitae into one's pattern.
                        There is version of this kind of spells in Creative Thaumaturgy thread.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Moinen View Post
                          As far as I know there is no Angel specific frequency, just like there is no Gulmoth twilight. I have no idea where I found it but it might be some of those Dave's statements that you can find on very perilous Anima Mundi journey at a every second Solstice.
                          Then what frequency of twilight are Angels in if not their own? The Mental Frequency of goetics and vampires using aspex ? The underworld frequency of ghosts, ectoplasm, and Chthonions?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Moinen View Post

                            There is version of this kind of spells in Creative Thaumaturgy thread.
                            I'd personally use Life + Death instead of just life as its a form of life energy corrupted by death/shadows, but otherwise I like it.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

                              Then what frequency of twilight are Angels in if not their own? The Mental Frequency of goetics and vampires using aspex ? The underworld frequency of ghosts, ectoplasm, and Chthonions?
                              It depend on the task of an angel. If it needs to e.g. harvest ghost for some ritual it can travel the Death Twilight. If going through Gauntlet is essential for its purpose it possibly can travel the Spirit Twilight.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

                                I'd personally use Life + Death instead of just life as its a form of life energy corrupted by death/shadows, but otherwise I like it.
                                You absolutely can change it to your tastes.

                                Back Angels. They are not natives of any realm, they are created by GM when they are needed and created with a purpose and means embeded in them. Hence it depends and Twilight they occupy changes from Angel to Angel. This also stretches to Infrastructures, they can be mundane, hidden in, mental, underworld, spirit or other more obscure frequency. GM might even have some dedicated frequency that it can create with a ritual but it would be more of a plot device and exception than basic 'realm' of Angels and GM.
                                GM repurposes what already exists.


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