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  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    "When in Twilight, only items, creatures, and phenomena that are also in Twilight and comprised of the same kind of ephemera can touch an ephemeral being."

    The only example is that ghosts and ghostly buildings are comprised of the same kind of ephemera, but there's nothing that suggests angels are comprised of different kinds of ephemera. In your example I find it more likely that the angel has Numina to interact with ghostly ephemera rather than being wholly comprised of it. If angels aren't even made of the same stuff I'd fail to see why they have a common rules set. It makes more sense to me that an angel that is made out of spiritual ephemera would have at least some traits common to that type of ephemera, such as being able to gorge on Resonant Conditions.

    I also found this later in the text:
    "Entities in Twilight can only attack or be attacked by other ephemeral beings of the same type, unless the attack utilizes the entity’s bane."
    Since the only division between ephemeral entities in CofD and DtD (where both quotes can be found) is angel/ghost/spirit, I'm going to assume that "type" refers to these three categories (plus those refered to in other gamelines).
    Mages adds Goetics and makes it clear that they share the level of twilight with other putely mental projections such as Vampires using Aspex.

    And of course we now have Hedge Ghosts in Changeling, which likely uses a Fae Frequency of Twilight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Moinen
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    "When in Twilight, only items, creatures, and phenomena that are also in Twilight and comprised of the same kind of ephemera can touch an ephemeral being."

    The only example is that ghosts and ghostly buildings are comprised of the same kind of ephemera, but there's nothing that suggests angels are comprised of different kinds of ephemera. In your example I find it more likely that the angel has Numina to interact with ghostly ephemera rather than being wholly comprised of it. If angels aren't even made of the same stuff I'd fail to see why they have a common rules set. It makes more sense to me that an angel that is made out of spiritual ephemera would have at least some traits common to that type of ephemera, such as being able to gorge on Resonant Conditions.

    I also found this later in the text:
    "Entities in Twilight can only attack or be attacked by other ephemeral beings of the same type, unless the attack utilizes the entity’s bane."
    Since the only division between ephemeral entities in CofD and DtD is angel, ghost and spirit, I'm going to assume that types refers to these three categories (plus those refered to in other gamelines).
    Yea, I'm not gonna argue about it since I don't have the source of this theory. I found this though:
    Originally posted by Architect p.253
    More specifically, it had the task of creating the
    boiler room that tied into the God-Machine and allowed it
    to harvest the spiritual energy from sacrifices.
    It's a sentence from a very first described Angel which also has influence over Boiler Room where he resides. Looks a lot like gorging on resonant condition. Or maybe not, I don't know. Like I said, I can't find the source so I won't argue. I'm leaving this thoery here for consideration.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    "When in Twilight, only items, creatures, and phenomena that are also in Twilight and comprised of the same kind of ephemera can touch an ephemeral being."

    The only example is that ghosts and ghostly buildings are comprised of the same kind of ephemera, but there's nothing that suggests angels are comprised of different kinds of ephemera. In your example I find it more likely that the angel has Numina to interact with ghostly ephemera rather than being wholly comprised of it. If angels aren't even made of the same stuff I'd fail to see why they have a common rules set. It makes more sense to me that an angel that is made out of spiritual ephemera would have at least some traits common to that type of ephemera, such as being able to gorge on Resonant Conditions.

    I also found this later in the text:
    "Entities in Twilight can only attack or be attacked by other ephemeral beings of the same type, unless the attack utilizes the entity’s bane."
    Since the only division between ephemeral entities in CofD and DtD (where both quotes can be found) is angel/ghost/spirit, I'm going to assume that "type" refers to these three categories (plus those refered to in other gamelines).
    Last edited by Tessie; 05-07-2017, 10:15 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Moinen
    replied
    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

    I'd personally use Life + Death instead of just life as its a form of life energy corrupted by death/shadows, but otherwise I like it.
    You absolutely can change it to your tastes.

    Back Angels. They are not natives of any realm, they are created by GM when they are needed and created with a purpose and means embeded in them. Hence it depends and Twilight they occupy changes from Angel to Angel. This also stretches to Infrastructures, they can be mundane, hidden in, mental, underworld, spirit or other more obscure frequency. GM might even have some dedicated frequency that it can create with a ritual but it would be more of a plot device and exception than basic 'realm' of Angels and GM.
    GM repurposes what already exists.

    Leave a comment:


  • Moinen
    replied
    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

    Then what frequency of twilight are Angels in if not their own? The Mental Frequency of goetics and vampires using aspex ? The underworld frequency of ghosts, ectoplasm, and Chthonions?
    It depend on the task of an angel. If it needs to e.g. harvest ghost for some ritual it can travel the Death Twilight. If going through Gauntlet is essential for its purpose it possibly can travel the Spirit Twilight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by Moinen View Post

    There is version of this kind of spells in Creative Thaumaturgy thread.
    I'd personally use Life + Death instead of just life as its a form of life energy corrupted by death/shadows, but otherwise I like it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by Moinen View Post
    As far as I know there is no Angel specific frequency, just like there is no Gulmoth twilight. I have no idea where I found it but it might be some of those Dave's statements that you can find on very perilous Anima Mundi journey at a every second Solstice.
    Then what frequency of twilight are Angels in if not their own? The Mental Frequency of goetics and vampires using aspex ? The underworld frequency of ghosts, ectoplasm, and Chthonions?

    Leave a comment:


  • Moinen
    replied
    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
    That gives me an idea that maybe Life + Death could harvest Vitae into one's pattern.
    There is version of this kind of spells in Creative Thaumaturgy thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    That gives me an idea that maybe Life + Death could harvest Vitae into one's pattern.

    Leave a comment:


  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

    Yes, but Prime is also the Arcana that governs lowercase-t truths, in the form of occult symbolism. And despite what self-proclaimed cirtics of Demon and GMC say, angels are manifestations of such occult physics and arcane laws that underlie the universe, in a way different from but similar to how Supernal symbols define the world.

    Of course, the analogy isn't completely one-to-one, like ghosts are to Death for instance, which is where the conjunctional Arcana come in. The angel's frequency of Twilight would then be governed by conjunctional pairs of Arcana, a concept which is something regular mages are unfamiliar with.

    It is also possible that each angel and their supporting Infrastructure lie on different conjunctional pairs. A time-traveling device and its guardian angel would be Prime + Time, while an angel who disorients people from looking too closely at that building's basement would be Prime + Mind. This makes God-Machine phenomena something mages can potentially tackle, but with much more difficulty and obscurity than the clear-cut phenomena of the Supernal Worlds that they're so accustomed to. Which fits the theme of the Fallen World itself being the greatest source of Mysteries.


    Returning back to Hedge Ghosts, I imagine that if they do turn Twilight upon entering Ironside, their frequency of Twilight would be attuned to either Fate or Mind if we assign only a single Arcanum, and both if they assign a conjunctional pair.
    Yeah I could see Fate + Mind to deal with them and their frequency of twilight, which I could see any Changeling using Phantom Glory to enter twilight entering that frequency of twilight instead of the Ghostly one.

    So requiring Fate + Mind would make them rarer and more exotic as familiars then say ghosts, goetics, or spirits as it requires two arcana to precieve them even never mind making them a familiar.

    And maybe mind + fate to harvest glamour into your pattern like Spirit Arcana can harvest essence.

    Leave a comment:


  • Moinen
    replied
    As far as I know there is no Angel specific frequency, just like there is no Gulmoth twilight. I have no idea where I found it but it might be some of those Dave's statements that you can find on very perilous Anima Mundi journey at a every second Solstice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    I don't know about either of those. Prime is primarily used for Supernal magic. The times Prime is able to affect other types of magic are exceptions (often with at least some sort of justification). And Forces is a Gross Arcanum. There's nothing that forbids Gross Arcana from governing ephemeral entities, but I like the divide. It reinforces the difference between Gross and Subtle Arcana.
    And by not having any governing Arcana we end up with a "frequency" of Twilight that mages can't readily access. That makes it more interesting, imo, and supports the notion that Twilight "frequencies" don't necessarily have to correspond to any Arcana, meqning there can potentially be an unlimited amount of Twilight "frequencies" instead of five or ten.
    But since we don't have any rules that even approaches the subject it's just up to each individual table to run it however it suits them best.
    Forces is basically the Arcana of physics and Godmachine Angels are basically Qantum Computers so I thought the combo of Prime + Forces made sense.

    Leave a comment:


  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    I don't know about either of those. Prime is primarily used for Supernal magic. The times Prime is able to affect other types of magic are exceptions (often with at least some sort of justification). And Forces is a Gross Arcanum. There's nothing that forbids Gross Arcana from governing ephemeral entities, but I like the divide. It reinforces the difference between Gross and Subtle Arcana.
    And by not having any governing Arcana we end up with a "frequency" of Twilight that mages can't readily access. That makes it more interesting, imo, and supports the notion that Twilight "frequencies" don't necessarily have to correspond to any Arcana, meqning there can potentially be an unlimited amount of Twilight "frequencies" instead of five or ten.
    But since we don't have any rules that even approaches the subject it's just up to each individual table to run it however it suits them best.
    Yes, but Prime is also the Arcana that governs lowercase-t truths, in the form of occult symbolism. And despite what self-proclaimed cirtics of Demon and GMC say, angels are manifestations of such occult physics and arcane laws that underlie the universe, in a way different from but similar to how Supernal symbols define the world.

    Of course, the analogy isn't completely one-to-one, like ghosts are to Death for instance, which is where the conjunctional Arcana come in. The angel's frequency of Twilight would then be governed by conjunctional pairs of Arcana, a concept which is something regular mages are unfamiliar with.

    It is also possible that each angel and their supporting Infrastructure lie on different conjunctional pairs. A time-traveling device and its guardian angel would be Prime + Time, while an angel who disorients people from looking too closely at that building's basement would be Prime + Mind. This makes God-Machine phenomena something mages can potentially tackle, but with much more difficulty and obscurity than the clear-cut phenomena of the Supernal Worlds that they're so accustomed to. Which fits the theme of the Fallen World itself being the greatest source of Mysteries.


    Returning back to Hedge Ghosts, I imagine that if they do turn Twilight upon entering Ironside, their frequency of Twilight would be attuned to either Fate or Mind if we assign only a single Arcanum, and both if they assign a conjunctional pair.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    I don't know about either of those. Prime is primarily used for Supernal magic. The times Prime is able to affect other types of magic are exceptions (often with at least some sort of justification). And Forces is a Gross Arcanum. There's nothing that forbids Gross Arcana from governing ephemeral entities, but I like the divide. It reinforces the difference between Gross and Subtle Arcana.
    And by not having any governing Arcana we end up with a "frequency" of Twilight that mages can't readily access. That makes it more interesting, imo, and supports the notion that Twilight "frequencies" don't necessarily have to correspond to any Arcana, meqning there can potentially be an unlimited amount of Twilight "frequencies" instead of five or ten.
    But since we don't have any rules that even approaches the subject it's just up to each individual table to run it however it suits them best.

    Leave a comment:


  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    I'd think it would be Prime + Forces for Angels.

    Leave a comment:

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