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  • #31
    "When in Twilight, only items, creatures, and phenomena that are also in Twilight and comprised of the same kind of ephemera can touch an ephemeral being."

    The only example is that ghosts and ghostly buildings are comprised of the same kind of ephemera, but there's nothing that suggests angels are comprised of different kinds of ephemera. In your example I find it more likely that the angel has Numina to interact with ghostly ephemera rather than being wholly comprised of it. If angels aren't even made of the same stuff I'd fail to see why they have a common rules set. It makes more sense to me that an angel that is made out of spiritual ephemera would have at least some traits common to that type of ephemera, such as being able to gorge on Resonant Conditions.

    I also found this later in the text:
    "Entities in Twilight can only attack or be attacked by other ephemeral beings of the same type, unless the attack utilizes the entity’s bane."
    Since the only division between ephemeral entities in CofD and DtD (where both quotes can be found) is angel/ghost/spirit, I'm going to assume that "type" refers to these three categories (plus those refered to in other gamelines).
    Last edited by Tessie; 05-07-2017, 10:15 AM.


    Bloodline: The Stygians
    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Tessie View Post
      "When in Twilight, only items, creatures, and phenomena that are also in Twilight and comprised of the same kind of ephemera can touch an ephemeral being."

      The only example is that ghosts and ghostly buildings are comprised of the same kind of ephemera, but there's nothing that suggests angels are comprised of different kinds of ephemera. In your example I find it more likely that the angel has Numina to interact with ghostly ephemera rather than being wholly comprised of it. If angels aren't even made of the same stuff I'd fail to see why they have a common rules set. It makes more sense to me that an angel that is made out of spiritual ephemera would have at least some traits common to that type of ephemera, such as being able to gorge on Resonant Conditions.

      I also found this later in the text:
      "Entities in Twilight can only attack or be attacked by other ephemeral beings of the same type, unless the attack utilizes the entity’s bane."
      Since the only division between ephemeral entities in CofD and DtD is angel, ghost and spirit, I'm going to assume that types refers to these three categories (plus those refered to in other gamelines).
      Yea, I'm not gonna argue about it since I don't have the source of this theory. I found this though:
      Originally posted by Architect p.253
      More specifically, it had the task of creating the
      boiler room that tied into the God-Machine and allowed it
      to harvest the spiritual energy from sacrifices.
      It's a sentence from a very first described Angel which also has influence over Boiler Room where he resides. Looks a lot like gorging on resonant condition. Or maybe not, I don't know. Like I said, I can't find the source so I won't argue. I'm leaving this thoery here for consideration.


      [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Tessie View Post
        "When in Twilight, only items, creatures, and phenomena that are also in Twilight and comprised of the same kind of ephemera can touch an ephemeral being."

        The only example is that ghosts and ghostly buildings are comprised of the same kind of ephemera, but there's nothing that suggests angels are comprised of different kinds of ephemera. In your example I find it more likely that the angel has Numina to interact with ghostly ephemera rather than being wholly comprised of it. If angels aren't even made of the same stuff I'd fail to see why they have a common rules set. It makes more sense to me that an angel that is made out of spiritual ephemera would have at least some traits common to that type of ephemera, such as being able to gorge on Resonant Conditions.

        I also found this later in the text:
        "Entities in Twilight can only attack or be attacked by other ephemeral beings of the same type, unless the attack utilizes the entity’s bane."
        Since the only division between ephemeral entities in CofD and DtD (where both quotes can be found) is angel/ghost/spirit, I'm going to assume that "type" refers to these three categories (plus those refered to in other gamelines).
        Mages adds Goetics and makes it clear that they share the level of twilight with other putely mental projections such as Vampires using Aspex.

        And of course we now have Hedge Ghosts in Changeling, which likely uses a Fae Frequency of Twilight.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
          "When in Twilight, only items, creatures, and phenomena that are also in Twilight and comprised of the same kind of ephemera can touch an ephemeral being."
          I also found this later in the text
          "Entities in Twilight can only attack or be attacked by other ephemeral beings of the same type, unless the attack utilizes the entity’s bane."
          Since the only division between ephemeral entities in CofD and DtD (where both quotes can be found) is angel/ghost/spirit, I'm going to assume that "type" refers to these three categories (plus those refered to in other gamelines).
          Id go further and state that there is only 3 types of ephermera, spirit, goetia and ghost . Supernal beings become one of the to other depending on what arcana they use to interact with. It specifically says supernal entities arnt made of ephemera but they still use alot of the game mechanics. Ive not read much of Demon but is it not the same for Angels, they arnt made from ephemera and use numina/abilities to interact with ghosts/spirits/whatever if they need too? They also use similar mechanics to spirits/ghosts but arnt etc?

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Moinen View Post

            Yea, I'm not gonna argue about it since I don't have the source of this theory. I found this though:

            It's a sentence from a very first described Angel which also has influence over Boiler Room where he resides. Looks a lot like gorging on resonant condition. Or maybe not, I don't know. Like I said, I can't find the source so I won't argue. I'm leaving this thoery here for consideration.
            Angels don't gorge on reasence like spirits do, and neither do Ghosts and Goetics which like Angels have influences.

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            • #36
              My quotes came from pages 125 and 129 in Chronicles of Darkness, or pages 339 and 343 from Demon: The Descent.

              You kinda missed the important bit there. The primary way for angels to gain Essence is to gain it from sacrifices. Also "spiritual" can refer to spirits and the Shadow, but it can also be a synonym for just supernatural. The angel harvested supernatural energy (Essence) from sacrifices.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

                Angels don't gorge on reasence like spirits do, and neither do Ghosts and Goetics which like Angels have influences.
                You're right. They do their own similar thingy and they are always of GM origin. They are not Spirits or Ghosts or Goetia. They are Angels with their template and I frankly have no idea what combination of arcana would 'govern' them. But you can certainly harm their minds with Mind, shred with Death or curse with Fate if you happen to be on the same wavelength as them or cast an aoe.

                Angels are mechanisms in the God-Machine, and like
                any machine they are sustained by fuel. God-Machine
                cultists sacrificing precious resources (metaphorical or
                literal), animals, or even humans to the angel in its
                presence allow it to regain the Resources value of the
                item or animal, or the current Integrity of a human
                sacrifice, as Essence


                [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                  My quotes came from pages 125 and 129 in Chronicles of Darkness, or pages 339 and 343 from Demon: The Descent.

                  You kinda missed the important bit there. The primary way for angels to gain Essence is to gain it from sacrifices. Also "spiritual" can refer to spirits and the Shadow, but it can also be a synonym for just supernatural. The angel harvested supernatural energy (Essence) from sacrifices.
                  I missed but I hope I answered in previous post.


                  [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                    Id go further and state that there is only 3 types of ephermera, spirit, goetia and ghost . Supernal beings become one of the to other depending on what arcana they use to interact with. It specifically says supernal entities arnt made of ephemera but they still use alot of the game mechanics. Ive not read much of Demon but is it not the same for Angels, they arnt made from ephemera and use numina/abilities to interact with ghosts/spirits/whatever if they need too? They also use similar mechanics to spirits/ghosts but arnt etc?
                    Angels, ghosts, Goetia, and spirits are all explicitly ephemeral.
                    Qashmallim, Acamoths, and Gulmoths use ephemeral rules, but the former is made out of Pyros rather than ephemera, and the latter are exceptions to reality that doesn't even have their proper rules yet. Strix are also similar to ephemeral entities, but made out of some kind of semi-tangible shadow-smoke.

                    ​You might be confusing angels with demons who were angels but became physical when they fell.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #40
                      When speaking about angels, we have to remember that their God can flat-out ignore the standard Ephemeral Entity rules when creating them, despite being close enough to spirits/ghosts/Goetia to be "true" ephemerals. Like with Covers and Manifestations. Angels affecting Twilight frequencies that they shouldn't be able to sound perfectly in line with this.
                      Last edited by 21C Hermit; 05-08-2017, 01:56 AM. Reason: grammar


                      MtAw Homebrew:
                      Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
                      New 2E Legacies, expanded

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                      • #41
                        I think my confusion is that its possible to be a ephemeral entity and not be in twilight, which is what i thought angels were. That they appeared in the world physically manifested and twilight isnt their default state and that if they needed to deal with a ghost/spirit that was in twilight they would have numina/whatever to become that state of twilight and go sort it. Different states of twilight is fine but remembering them all will get harder the more of them there is.

                        Speaking of which, i noticed all Angels in the core book have a numina called "Twilight Form" but i cant find any text on it?? Maybe the text of that states it can decide when it uses that numina which frequency of twilight form it takes??

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                        • #42
                          Twilight Form is a Manifestation. It just means that if an ephemeral with it goes into the real world, they're in twilight.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                            I think my confusion is that its possible to be a ephemeral entity and not be in twilight, which is what i thought angels were. That they appeared in the world physically manifested and twilight isnt their default state and that if they needed to deal with a ghost/spirit that was in twilight they would have numina/whatever to become that state of twilight and go sort it. Different states of twilight is fine but remembering them all will get harder the more of them there is.

                            Speaking of which, i noticed all Angels in the core book have a numina called "Twilight Form" but i cant find any text on it?? Maybe the text of that states it can decide when it uses that numina which frequency of twilight form it takes??
                            The ephemeral entity rules are a short hand for critter creation used across the game lines. They're essentially a tool kit, Supernal entities for instance use the ephemeral entity rules, but they have no natural ephemeral form existing either in the Supernal world, or in the Fallen inside a summoning circle. They can go into Twilight or an ephemeral realm like the Shadow or the Underworld if they have the appropriate arcana, but that isn't anything like the same thing as being an actual ephemeral entity. Gulmoth and Acamoth work the same way, just because an Abyssal entity is trapped in the Astral (Thus being an Acamoth) it -isn't- a goetia and isn't subject to exactly the same rules as goetia and even more importantly isn't by definition subject to the Mind arcana.

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                            • #44
                              ephemera isn't just a generic rule set, emphemera is an actual substance in character, abit with different types such Angel ephemera, Ghost emphemera, Goetic Emphemera, Spirit Empheremera.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
                                ephemera isn't just a generic rule set, emphemera is an actual substance in character, abit with different types such Angel ephemera, Ghost emphemera, Goetic Emphemera, Spirit Empheremera.
                                I wasn't talking about ephemera, I was talking about the ephemeral entity rules, so your comment is completely irrelevant to my point.

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