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Does Postcognition work on someone who commits the Grandfather Paradox?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jeremysbrain View Post

    If it is Lasting the people you killed would remain dead and their direct effects on the Time travelers life might change. But the butterfly effect isn't a thing here, the Fallen World wants to maintain the status quo. There is no causality. So the people you killed would be dead but most everything else would probably be the same. The Lie would justify this to the sleepers, but Awaken would see the effects, especially with Active Time Sight. This is a boon to a GM, he doesn't have to be logical about the effects of time travel. I don't think it is explicitly stated this way in any of the books, but it is implied at the least and frankly its the best way to run time travel and stay sane. Because of Temporal sympathy it is pretty difficult to go back very far anyway.

    If you used postcognition directly on a Time traveler you would probably see his original life up to the point he time traveled then you would see him time travelling and then returning to the changed future. If he actually lived it, then you would see it with postcognition.
    I see where you're going with this, in terms of GM simplicity, but I think it creates more problems than it solves. A clever player can go back in time and commit murder, save their friend's life at great cost, or all sorts of other things, and never worry about the consequences because only life and death changes the future.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Strill View Post

      I see where you're going with this, in terms of GM simplicity, but I think it creates more problems than it solves. A clever player can go back in time and commit murder, save their friend's life at great cost, or all sorts of other things, and never worry about the consequences because only life and death changes the future.
      that is not really what I meant. Of course there can be consequences if it serves what you want as part of your story. What I meant is no one should be knocking themselves out trying to reorder the universe every time an mage goes time traveling. If anachronisms and paradoxes pop up well that is just the way magic is. You dont have to rationalize them. Sleepers won't notice them because of the Lie. In other words don't let the side effects of time travel dictate your story.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Strill View Post
        So you're saying there would be two versions of you? One dead corpse, and one who returned from the past?
        No, I'm saying there would be one version of you, which would be a corpse from the past to the present. Though having died in the past they'd probably do you the kindness of having given you a funeral back then.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

          No, I'm saying there would be one version of you, which would be a corpse from the past to the present. Though having died in the past they'd probably do you the kindness of having given you a funeral back then.
          Actually, the book is kind of vague on this. It does say the time traveler is immune to the changes in the timeline. It does say that you can prevent your own birth and you will still exist in the present. So it isn't hard to jump to the conclusion that you might still exist in the present if you set up your own death in the past. I would probably use your logic here, unless it was a specific story I was aiming for.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Jeremysbrain View Post
            Actually, the book is kind of vague on this. It does say the time traveler is immune to the changes in the timeline. It does say that you can prevent your own birth and you will still exist in the present. So it isn't hard to jump to the conclusion that you might still exist in the present if you set up your own death in the past. I would probably use your logic here, unless it was a specific story I was aiming for.
            It also says that if you go back in the past and you die, your corpse jumps to the present (Because the spell is over) and you're still dead in the present. So perhaps instead of being buried for a long time you'd just pop back to where you were but now you're dead with evidence of having fallen off a building.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

              It also says that if you go back in the past and you die, your corpse jumps to the present (Because the spell is over) and you're still dead in the present. So perhaps instead of being buried for a long time you'd just pop back to where you were but now you're dead with evidence of having fallen off a building.

              I think you missed that the idea was that you don't die in the past in this scheme, you set yourself up to die right after the spell ends. You jump off the building, then in midair the Duration runs out and you jump back to the present, all your changes are Lasting; including your body plummeting to it's death.

              You would return to a present where you died in the past (but after the time you traveled to).


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              • #37
                If you die in the past you're dead in the present. The only immunity granted to you for changing the timeline is that you remember the original events.

                By your logic temporal stutter cancels terminal velocity.
                Last edited by Mrmdubois; 04-24-2017, 12:30 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                  If you die in the past you're dead in the present.
                  Time travel insulates you from the immediate effects of grandfather-paradox shenanigans — per the book's example, if you somehow go back in time and prevent your own birth, you still exist in the present, but nobody will know who you are. It's not much of a stretch to extend that to events that cause your past self to be killed after the spell's Duration ends.


                  Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                  Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                    By your logic temporal stutter cancels terminal velocity.
                    That is a false comparison. In Temporal Stutter the targets present body is moving through time, In Corridors of Time you are quantum leaping into a past version of your body, leaving your current body in the present. The other obvious differences in the spell is that in Temporal Stutter, present time keeps moving forward during the duration of the spell, in Corridors of Time, present time stops moving forward until the spell ends.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      Time travel insulates you from the immediate effects of grandfather-paradox shenanigans — per the book's example, if you somehow go back in time and prevent your own birth, you still exist in the present, but nobody will know who you are. It's not much of a stretch to extend that to events that cause your past self to be killed after the spell's Duration ends.
                      And so the question is: Does this somehow create a second copy of your body? One "you" who fell to his death, and another "you" who returned through time? Or does your corpse vanish when you return through time?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Strill View Post
                        And so the question is: Does this somehow create a second copy of your body? One "you" who fell to his death, and another "you" who returned through time? Or does your corpse vanish when you return through time?
                        "Respawn in your corpse's place or a suitably symbolic location" is how I'd run it; nobody said faking your death through time-travel had to be easy to manage.


                        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Strill View Post

                          And so the question is: Does this somehow create a second copy of your body? One "you" who fell to his death, and another "you" who returned through time? Or does your corpse vanish when you return through time?

                          Yes, it would create a second body, because your immune to the changes to the timeline. Your present self now becomes an anachronism that shouldn't exist and no one you met after your past self dies remembers you and no one you met before then believes you are who you say you are.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            "Respawn in your corpse's place or a suitably symbolic location" is how I'd run it; nobody said faking your death through time-travel had to be easy to manage.
                            You don't respawn, because your present self never left where he was when the spell was cast. To anyone in the present who witnesses this spell it would appear to be instantaneous and only people who had Constant Presence cast on them would probably even remember why the spell was being cast.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Jeremysbrain View Post
                              You don't respawn, because your present self never left where he was when the spell was cast.
                              Time travel does not imply what is effectively teleportation. Part of the niche/issue of time travel magic is having to account for any changes that occurred between when the end of the spell and the present; you can't go back in time an hour, run to the far side of town, and commit a murder with a perfect alibi. Your present self ends up where your past self would have wound up.


                              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                                Time travel does not imply what is effectively teleportation. Part of the niche/issue of time travel magic is having to account for any changes that occurred between when the end of the spell and the present; you can't go back in time an hour, run to the far side of town, and commit a murder with a perfect alibi. Your present self ends up where your past self would have wound up.

                                No. With Corridors of Time your present body stays where it is as you inhabit the body of your past self, your physical body does not travel with you into the past.

                                Edit: To clarify, your present self never leaves the location of where the spell is cast.

                                Edit2: You are right if a spell ends because you caught up with the present. If the spell runs out while you are still in the past then your present self would still be where you cast the spell.
                                Last edited by Jeremysbrain; 04-24-2017, 09:30 PM.

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