Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What can Prime dispell or interact with?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What can Prime dispell or interact with?

    The question came up when my Obrimos (Prime 3, my highest Arcana) came in direct contact with Second Sight's thaumaturgy magic. Then, I was in face with non-awakened magic, wich I could not dispel nor alter. As a Mage I was confident that I could handle the situation, but I was personally offended. (lol)
    Then I found Supernal Dispellation.

    Supernal Dispellaton (Prime 4):
    By its fluff the dispell works only on awakened magic, but by its mechanical description there's no such limitation, unlike Dispel Magic does.
    The discussion in the thread "Ask a simple questions, Awakened edition" led to no conclusion.

    So, Prime is the Arcana responsible for Supernal Symbolism itself and under its purview we can see Magic, Supernal World and truth. This rises some questions:
    Can Prime interact with non-awakened magic - like werewolfs rituals, vampiric sorcery and rituals, second sight's thaumaturgy, and so forth -, as one of its purview?
    Can Prime use the Supernal Symbolism to interact with other types of supernatural powers, like dispell/supress a vampiric displine by imposing the Supernal Symbols/The Truth in it?

    For those questions, I came up with some inconclusive ideas:
    This is a bit complex, but by the permeability of the Supernal Symbols in the world, Prime should be able to dispel supernatural habilities using its symbolism (the ones that Mage Sight can percept). But if we take the exemple of Prime Mage Armor, it would be possible to affect only wholly supernatural powers. because mixed ones are in other fields of application. Or we could use the approach based in its Magic purview that it is only applicable in the case of some type of magic. And in any case, it should cost Reach.

    But I don't know, I'm still trying to figure it out.

  • #2
    Prime can't directly interact with other non-Supernal powers. The other arcana are also incapable of directly interacting with non-Supernal powers that don't fall directly under their purview. It's like dealing with attainments, they can deal with the after effects of the use of a power or enter a CoW to bypass or defeat the power.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm not taking a stance here but look also at Word of Command (Prime 1) that can activate non-supernal items.

      Add Any Other Arcanum •: By adding the relevant Arcanum,
      a mage can activate magical effects and objects created by other
      sources of power — Spirit to activate a fetish, Fate to trigger a
      faerie’s curse, and so on. If this object requires mystical energy
      (Essence or stranger substances) to activate, the mage may spend
      Mana in lieu of the normal power source.
      I think that any arcana can do it within their respective purview. Above option lets you use mana as power source, I think, but I would allow it as Reach also for other purviews.


      [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

      Comment


      • #4
        In fact almost every (if not all) Arcana can interact with non-Supernal powers. And magic falls into the Prime purview, if it is the case.

        Comment


        • #5
          Well... not exactly. In the purview of Prime magic starts with capital letter. And mages have a clear distinction between 'passant supernatural magic and tricks' and 'Divine Supernal Truth called Magic'

          Also. Magic.


          [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

          Comment


          • #6
            I was researching the Prime Rotes and we have 5 (2 are indecisive) that point to the fact that Prime can interact with other types of supernatural forces:
            Supernal Vision, that reveal other supernatural auras. It's limited and don't give you much information in case of others supernatural beigns.
            Word of Command, as listed above by Moinen.
            Ephemeral Enchantment, that permits a weapon to cut through anytype of creatures in twilight form, with no need of the support of other Arcanas, the raw energy of Prime makes it possible to hit ghosts, spirits, angels and so forth.
            Words of Unmaking is capable to destroy any kind of magical item, except for Supernal Artifacts.
            Supernal Veil, it may have supernal in name, but can cloak any kind of supernatural aura/presence.

            In question:
            Apparently, Wards and Signs could protect you from any kind of magic, there's no especification.
            Supernal Dispellation could dispel any kind of magic, there's no esplicit limit, while Dispel Magic has.
            PS.: I think Supernal Dispellation should be Ruling, not Unraveling, because it's a natural evolution of Dispel Magic (Compeling) and by its own description.
            Last edited by Museigen; 04-25-2017, 06:18 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Museigen View Post
              I was researching the Prime Rotes and we have 5 (2 are indecisive) that point to the fact that Prime can interact with other types of supernatural forces:
              Supernal Vision, that reveal other supernatural auras. It's limited and don't give you much information in case of others supernatural beigns.
              Word of Command, as listed above by Moinen.
              Ephemeral Enchantment, that permits a weapon to cut through anytype of creatures in twilight form, with no need of the support of other Arcanas, the raw energy of Prime makes it possible to hit ghosts, spirits, angels and so forth.
              Words of Unmaking is capable to destroy any kind of magical item, except for Supernal Artifacts.
              Supernal Veil, it may have supernal in name, but can cloak any kind of supernatural aura/presence.

              In question:
              Apparently, Wards and Signs could protect you from any kind of magic, there's no especification.
              Supernal Dispellation could dispel any kind of magic, there's no esplicit limit, while Dispel Magic has.
              PS.: I think Supernal Dispellation should be Ruling, not Unraveling, because it's a natural evolution of Dispel Magic (Compeling) and by its own description.
              Prime doesn't -directly- interact with other supernatural powers except in instances of CoW in which case the only purpose is to bypass and/or defeat the power.

              Supernal Vision: Tells you something is supernatural, gives almost no useful information about what kind of supernatural it is unless they're a Mage, Sleeper or Sleepwalker.
              Word of Command: Deals with other types of magic by having access to an appropriate conjunction arcana like I said earlier.
              Ephemeral Enchantment: Interacting with a state of being is not the same as interacting with the powers that such beings have.
              Word of Unmaking: Still not a direct interaction with a non-Supernal power. I already pointed out that the closest Mages get to direct interaction is either by defeating non-Supernal powers or bypassing them.
              Supernal Veil: All it does is block detection powers, so like I said before, invoking a CoW to defeat a non-Supernal power.
              Wards and Signs: Clearly only works on Awakened Magic since no other system has Withstand.
              Supernal Dispellation: Specifically says it only works on spells. What's the splat with spells?

              Comment


              • #8
                While not taking a side (I'm personally undecided) I'll still point out that Word of Command requires other Arcana to be able to affect anything that isn't Supernal by nature, so it's not an example of Prime being able to affect non-Supernal magic.

                Edit: Just read the post above instead. It convinced me.
                Last edited by Tessie; 04-25-2017, 06:40 PM.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                Comment


                • #9
                  What Museigen said makes me wondering. Why the distinction between Supernal and normal Dispelation which needs conjunctionals. Looks like a direct port from 1E, it lacks the power feel of 2E. And I cant find the explanation for it to need conjunctional. Or why isn't Supernal D. a Fraying spell. I want to Fray a spell and I should be able to.
                  Edit: Or command the spell to end with Ruling. Ruling gives you a total control over a phenomena.
                  Last edited by Moinen; 04-25-2017, 07:13 PM.


                  [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ok, I understood some mechanical implicit limitation. But still conceptually lacking...
                    Some questions:
                    Like in Word of Command, if you have access to the right addicional arcana which defines the association of the supernatural power/magic in question with a Supernal World/Arcana, it could be possible to use just like in Word of Command to disrupt it?
                    The Ephemeral Enchantment is not "just" a way to interact with certain state of being. With the Spirit Arcana, Gossamer Touch, you can interact with Spirits only, with Death 2 or Mind 2, you can extend this benefit for others beings, ghosts and Goetia respectively. This does not point to that Prime commands a raw force that can interact with other types of forces?
                    Words of Unmaking can explode a Fetiche, an object made from spirits essence, numina and ritual (correct if I'm wrong). It'd fall in the same question as above.
                    And Supernal Dispellation, yes, we have a lot of others types of magic in the cenary. Is the terminology "Spell" important in this case? If so, I need to research.

                    I think that with Prime it should be possible to dispel powers (not all, maybe only "magic") from other supernatural with Unraveling, or maybe Unmaking, practice, and could force a CoW to happen, instead of the system of Potency. I'm not saying that it would necessarily be with Supernal Dispellation (that I think that should be Ruling, not Unraveling).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ephemeral Enchantment acts on 'truth' part of purview. You basically make something so real that it cuts all layers of Twilight.


                      [2E] Moinen's Homebrew Hub

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Museigen View Post
                        I think that with Prime it should be possible to dispel powers (not all, maybe only "magic") from other supernatural with Unraveling, or maybe Unmaking, practice, and could force a CoW to happen, instead of the system of Potency. I'm not saying that it would necessarily be with Supernal Dispellation (that I think that should be Ruling, not Unraveling).
                        I lean with MrmDubois' explanation for the most part on this. On the assumption that you choose another path or your ST allows it, you would need to define what lower-case magic was, and what the difference between 'supernatural' and 'magic' was. Prime operates for the most part against Supernal Magic - it doesn't particularly allow you to influence every magical phenomena with it alone; I could not, for instance, see a mage dispelling a werewolf's shapeshifting, even though that is "magic".

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                          Prime doesn't -directly- interact with other supernatural powers except in instances of CoW in which case the only purpose is to bypass and/or defeat the power.
                          ....

                          Supernal Dispellation: Specifically says it only works on spells. What's the splat with spells?
                          So Museigen This premise seems very analytical to me (,not to mention these points taken as is are contradictory).

                          So the question becomes does thew ST allow it? seems not to be the case. Fair enough; sorry, no one can help.


                          But if you wanted to argue that Prime should effect all magic your best bet would be to make a case the the spell cast by this Second Sight hedge wizard was in fact Supernal Truth harnessed by an unawakened person.

                          The other point to keep in mind is in universe splats are not a thing (sort of). ask your ST what the difference is between a second sight mage, a Mage, a proximi and any other magic user you ST is adding to your game. they might have a good answer which could make all the logical difference.
                          good luck.
                          Last edited by basketcase; 04-25-2017, 11:10 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yes, I'm discussing it with my group and we will decide it next game session. The ST will define and research the basis and origin of other types of magic. This was the first time this kind of question was raised.
                            My concern here is not especifically if I can do it in my game, but it's to fully understand the limitations and possibilities the concepts and mechanics can offer.

                            For now, Prime Mage Armor still is making me wonder...
                            Last edited by Museigen; 04-26-2017, 02:17 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                              Prime doesn't -directly- interact with other supernatural powers except in instances of CoW in which case the only purpose is to bypass and/or defeat the power.

                              Supernal Vision: Tells you something is supernatural, gives almost no useful information about what kind of supernatural it is unless they're a Mage, Sleeper or Sleepwalker.
                              I wouldn't say Supernal Vision gives almost no useful information. As I read the spell description, it gives you everything. It just doesn't connect dots. Like letting you read finger prints, just not supplying a database. If you have no knowledge of werewolves, Supernal Vision will show you that it is supernatural with an aura that does not match sleeper or mage or sleepwalker. Look at two or three werewolves (once you know they are werewolves) and you will realize what that extra "noise" means. Then when you look at Changeling for the first time, you will know it is supernatural, but not a mage, sleeper, sleepwalker, or werewolf. Use it enough, and supernal vision will eventually let you identify all the major supernaturals (that you are likely to encounter) at a glance, at least as it is used in my game..

                              This is largely a nitpick on my part, since this is just about information. It doesn't contradict your overall point, with which I agree.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X