Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Beasts

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Beasts

    Can Beasts travel to the Supernal Realms and if not, why?

  • #2
    No, because the Supernal Realms aren't a place. There's nowhere to "go" to. It's like saying "Can they travel to math?".

    Comment


    • #3
      Off the top of my head I'd say: yes, they can, but it would almost never be a good idea. I'd say ask the masters who've attempted to seek the threshold of archmastery and failed why, but there never have been any such people, and there never will be.

      Comment


      • #4
        Why would they be able to, particularly since the Supernal Realms isn't a place?


        Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
        Female pronouns, please.

        Comment


        • #5
          If by "travel to the Supernal realms", you mean "become incorporated by an Archmaster's soul such that when he Ascends to the Supernal Realm and imprints himself upon the source-code of the universe, they are a part of his symbol"? Then yes, yes they can.

          However if you mean "can a Beast travel to the Supernal realm as a kind of astral traveller", then I'd say probably not.
          Even if you consider the Supernal to be similar enough to the Astral to permit such beings entry, there's still the great honking problem of the Abyss being in the way.
          Something that only Archmasters can fjord, with no small amount of effort.

          Comment


          • #6
            The best shot Beasts have is to breach the Primordial Dream, wade through the Anima Mundi, reach the Far Shores and cross the Ocean Oroboros.

            Which translates to, "Tough luck."


            MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

            Comment


            • #7
              I agree that it'd be impossible since it's not a place and metaphysically separated from all other actual realms by the Abyss.
              But how about realms that Mages would call Lower Depths? Strixworld, Inferno, Duat, etc?


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                I agree that it'd be impossible since it's not a place and metaphysically separated from all other actual realms by the Abyss.
                But how about realms that Mages would call Lower Depths? Strixworld, Inferno, Duat, etc?
                They would probably run into the same problem Mages do, yes you can go there, but you'll probably die instantly and you can't come back.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                  No, because the Supernal Realms aren't a place. There's nowhere to "go" to. It's like saying "Can they travel to math?".
                  *Considers this* You know, I've took this and pretty much internalized it for a while, but this question got me actually looking for the part where it explains that the Supernal Realms are not actually a place, but a - I guess the closest would be a perception?

                  The problem with this, is that the Exarches are supposedly said to have forced their way -physically- into the Supernal Realms, and things which are summoned -from- the Supernal Realms. To top it off, the Abyss exists -between- the Supernal and the Fallen Reality - or at least is described as such. The Supernal Entities are not described as 'being translated into a form The term 'realm' is fairly hard to comprehend as 'not-a-place' as well, especially given that to Name something is to define it, and mages - in their infinite wisdom - don't seem like the type to call something a place when it isn't.

                  I'd like someone to explain both how the Supernal Realms are not a place - where in the book it mentions this - and finally, if the mages themselves are aware of the fact that it is not, in fact, an actual location (given how often terms applied to locations - such as "to enter", to "Visit", or to summon from, or the reference about Supernal Entities calling the Supernal Realms their Home). Is this an Imperial Mysteries thing, or is this actually the case written in 2e's core somewhere, and I just keep missing it?

                  To actually address the question for the OP though, knowing my question is a bit off topic. Whether or not the Supernal Realms were actual locations or not, I would say they are far too -alien- for Beasts to enter into. I might allow it - just like I might allow a Beast to enter into the Abyss - but that's the end of the character. The Beast is gone, and quite possibly never did exist, will exist, or can exist. Now of course there are exceptions to all things in every scenario - a Mage is said to visit the supernal Realms when they Awaken, so maybe by entering into the Soul of a Mage during his Awakening, you could experience what is -supposed- to be a Mage-Only phenomena. But barring that? Probably not

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jakondite View Post

                    *Considers this* You know, I've took this and pretty much internalized it for a while, but this question got me actually looking for the part where it explains that the Supernal Realms are not actually a place, but a - I guess the closest would be a perception?

                    The problem with this, is that the Exarches are supposedly said to have forced their way -physically- into the Supernal Realms, and things which are summoned -from- the Supernal Realms. To top it off, the Abyss exists -between- the Supernal and the Fallen Reality - or at least is described as such. The Supernal Entities are not described as 'being translated into a form The term 'realm' is fairly hard to comprehend as 'not-a-place' as well, especially given that to Name something is to define it, and mages - in their infinite wisdom - don't seem like the type to call something a place when it isn't.

                    I'd like someone to explain both how the Supernal Realms are not a place - where in the book it mentions this - and finally, if the mages themselves are aware of the fact that it is not, in fact, an actual location (given how often terms applied to locations - such as "to enter", to "Visit", or to summon from, or the reference about Supernal Entities calling the Supernal Realms their Home). Is this an Imperial Mysteries thing, or is this actually the case written in 2e's core somewhere, and I just keep missing it?

                    To actually address the question for the OP though, knowing my question is a bit off topic. Whether or not the Supernal Realms were actual locations or not, I would say they are far too -alien- for Beasts to enter into. I might allow it - just like I might allow a Beast to enter into the Abyss - but that's the end of the character. The Beast is gone, and quite possibly never did exist, will exist, or can exist. Now of course there are exceptions to all things in every scenario - a Mage is said to visit the supernal Realms when they Awaken, so maybe by entering into the Soul of a Mage during his Awakening, you could experience what is -supposed- to be a Mage-Only phenomena. But barring that? Probably not
                    Remember your Mastigos perspective. Remember the nature of the light beyond the cave, your place beneath that fire.

                    Distance is a lie. Form gives way to ideal. That which is not can still be. "Ideas are more real than the reality you encounter."

                    The Exarchs became memetic fundmanetals, "laws" about the nature of the world, less gods in the way we think of them and more as invisible impositions, those moments when you sense you just need to give up and dream smaller, those quiet moments that crush your soul. The Inhabitants of the Supernal are those things in reverse-memetic fundmanetals that take a form that make sense to us.

                    There is no place to enter or leave from, merely that bright sense that is neither bright nor sensed, Things change in and out of it, as wills are made manifest. To be a God of the Supernal is to become hope itself-or justice, or despair, or evil, or gentility, or octogenarian, or divide, or zero or anything and everything hard to define, to become more than an idea, but to become The Way Things Are. You wholly become it, but the illusions of what the flesh means are blended together with all the other illusions about our time and matter and forces and space , as "entity" bends and assumes the shapes of the subtle Arcana and continues till one is molded into That Dream We Cannot Wake From.

                    "Physically" entering and leaving the Supernal is an easier concept for most people to grasp, but really the fullness of such an act is more accurately said "the wholeness of you enters/exits" the Supernal. Your Gross Arcana are still You, even if you become a form that is beyond the Gross materials-hell, even beyond the Subtle ones. But as I say, that's complicated, so "Physically" remains the comparison, even if the "place" in question is not a "place" at all, and that to "enter" it often requires you to have well trained yourself to have abandoned all notions of "place" pretty much altogether.

                    If the book doesn't make it clear, developer commentary does several times(including in the blog post on the subject, I'll find it later).

                    Long story short, Mage laughs at the idea of there being some kind of problem of entering a place that's not a place, and encourages everyone to expands their dimensions until it becomes one.
                    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-24-2017, 12:45 AM.


                    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Female pronouns, please.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jakondite View Post
                      Is this an Imperial Mysteries thing, or is this actually the case written in 2e's core somewhere, and I just keep missing it?
                      The Lexicon describes the Supernal World as the place where the concrete and the abstract mix; the "The World is a Lie" segment of the Introduction says "the Fallen World" is the name mages give the concrete universe that they inhabit shortly after a paragraph and a half of talking about the setting in a manner that frames the Supernal Realms as abstract symbols. The "Patterns, Forms, and the Tapestry" section of Chapter Two describes the Fallen World as the thing "giving [the Supernal] substance."

                      Also, the things that delineate physical dimension and temporal presence — the things that make a place a place — are both Gross Arcana. That didn't stop being a thing in the edition shift.


                      Resident Lore-Hound
                      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks for the responses!

                        While I can understand that stating something like using the terms they do is just an abbreviated and easier way of expressing what is actually going on, I also was under the idea that the mage book was catered to the perceptions of the Awakened - that is, it's not written for the perception of an outsider looking in, but rather meant to convey how the Awakened view reality -both fallen and supernal - which makes it all the more confusing when they choose to use terms like "entering" or "visiting" the supernal - if mages themselves are not meant to view the Supernal as a place that can be entered or visited.

                        In the end, it's not the only location that is not actually a location either - and there are different -meanings- to what 'not a location' means. The Abyss, for one, is not a location - but it's not a location in the sense that it cannot be, and yet is and houses many gods and beings which they themselves are worlds which are in fact locations, but aren't, because *rants a few hours regarding the nature of the abyss, and immediately becomes sane* :P. That's a special case though - then you look at places that aren't locations because they are not a place, but a person - the Astral in that case. And then you have locations which exist, but by stepping into it you have to change yourself to the rules of that location (1e shadow had this - when you stepped through a gate, it changed your form into Ephemera... or at least, the Silver Ladder section of lores said it did. Not sure if they kept that).

                        But - you can enter the Abyss. You can enter into a person's soul and deeper still. Yet where we acknowledge those places-which-are-not-places as places-enough-to-enter, we look at the Supernal and ask 'How would one enter Math' when the answer -seems- to be 'by becoming a number and adding yourself'.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jakondite View Post
                          But - you can enter the Abyss. You can enter into a person's soul and deeper still. Yet where we acknowledge those places-which-are-not-places as places-enough-to-enter, we look at the Supernal and ask 'How would one enter Math' when the answer -seems- to be 'by becoming a number and adding yourself'.
                          Claps to you, sir. Beautifully painted.


                          Userhat Aegpts Vlrs. Coren "Ojos de Fuego". Mithrael. Menehet.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jakondite View Post
                            In the end, it's not the only location that is not actually a location either - and there are different -meanings- to what 'not a location' means. The Abyss, for one, is not a location - but it's not a location in the sense that it cannot be, and yet is and houses many gods and beings which they themselves are worlds which are in fact locations, but aren't, because *rants a few hours regarding the nature of the abyss, and immediately becomes sane* :P. That's a special case though - then you look at places that aren't locations because they are not a place, but a person - the Astral in that case. And then you have locations which exist, but by stepping into it you have to change yourself to the rules of that location (1e shadow had this - when you stepped through a gate, it changed your form into Ephemera... or at least, the Silver Ladder section of lores said it did. Not sure if they kept that).
                            The Supernal is a place-that-isn't-a-place in a different manner than the Shadow or even the Astral — unAwakened minds can dream their way into a look at Phenomenal locations and see them pretty much as they are, but the raw Supernal by definition takes godlike power to filter it down to a discrete experience; the Gross partner of the Subtle Arcanum corresponding to Supernal magic is the one that marshals fire and storms and gravity for a reason. Its contents find expression in the Phenomenal through suitable symbolic forms through magical intervention or supernatural confluence rather than appearing to characters directly and undisguised.

                            To use the "Entering Math" metaphor, entering the Supernal safely is less like becoming a number and more like becoming the force behind a formula — numbers are for expression, not inhabitation. (To be perfectly frank, the better comparison is entering Myth, not Math; translating a ritual persona to a loosely-connected set of symbolism is easier than analogizing various aspects of calculus and arithmetic.)


                            Resident Lore-Hound
                            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

                            Comment

                            Working...
                            X