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  • Inquisitor
    started a topic Spellcasting tips and tricks.

    Spellcasting tips and tricks.

    So. I do consider myself somewhat proficient in Mage 2e's spellcasting system. But, as with everything, there's room for improvement. (Mostly beacause I feel completely left in the dust when other people in my party combo off to give everyone 8 again and +20 to all rolls for 24 hours and I just sit there and stare at them wondering how the hell are they even doing all that)
    Which is why I have turned to you, dear forumgoers, to gain insight into the ways you do your magic, to hopefully help at least somewhat increase my efficiency with things, and quite possibly help other people who might also want to, well, improve themselves in that regard.

  • Taldorblackfire
    replied
    Also, let's not forget the other thing Acanthus can do outside of Fate that is extremely powerful. They can go back in Time with no mana cost and if they have it as a Rote, a full scene should they really want to or perhaps 2 if they felt like it since you get 3 Free Reach with it as a Rote. Honestly, Acanthus are by far the most powerful mage type in the game, you don't really need any other mage to play. Need to get to the Shadow Realm? Just cast Shifting the Odds or some other divining spell or both to determine how to get there safely, sure your ST may change up the circumstances you run into, but you are an Acanthus you make your fate as you go and there is little anyone can do aside from just killing your magic. As totalgit has said, if you want to boost yourself up with a +55 bonus die pool roll that is easily dispelled that is fine since even if you went back in Time that would be gone, so in all honesty it is the least powerful thing they can do by comparison.

    However, the original point of this thread was to discuss different spell tricks to achieve some awesome things, so I shall get back to that. I personally like combining arcana in just 1 dot spells that allow me to instantly know how much money someone has in their pocket or how much is in that cash register if you want to determine if this place is likely to get robbed if you are unaware of the situation. That spell is typically a Matter 1 + Space 1 variant, and I also like the spell Dave Brookshaw created which combined Death 1 + Matter 1 to find all lethal weapons within sight of the character making it extremely useful should a fight break out. There are a lot of perks you can gain from combining very low arcana ratings and the biggest tip I can give is reading the practices until you know precisely what is capable and read through some of the core rulebook spells. There will be more to come and there are also some spoiled in the previews for Signs of Sorcery that really can help expand on what magic is capable of doing.

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  • totalgit
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    There are Conditions that let you directly make a failed roll into a successful roll and the principal balancing factor of Awakened magic is that more ambitious effects require more investment to maintain the same chance of success. A difference of four dice on a spellcasting roll is the difference between affecting a weak target and affecting a marginally strong target, or between affecting your personal space and affecting your personal garage, or getting an hour of benefit and getting a week of benefit.

    There becomes no reason not to have Exceptional Luck on at all times or use any Yantras beyond what's needed to push your dicepool above negative-ten if you can apply No-Strings-Attached Extra Dice and the standard Mess-With-Success Conditions to any and every spell you can cast. This isn't "I can hypothetically make anyone set about trying to kill themselves," this is "I have a Magic Ouroboros Shenanigan that means I can spend one spell control slot and then I don't need to bother with tools anymore."

    You have not yet shown the effort one requires to be able to "abuse" it, can you provide an example of how one achieves this like you did with Mind 2 and we can both be on the same page as to the effort involved. If you are going to state that is OP then please provide a working example.

    There are other ways to get those conditions on yourself such as low arcana praxis spamming to fish for a ES. Saying that a spell is over balanced because of a condition it can give is a poor argument when that condition is as easily gained via other methods.

    One reason not to have a perm exceptional luck is spell control, that is one tied up. At Gnosis 1 thats means every spell you cast after it is +1 reach.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by totalgit View Post
    Now put all that effort into explaining how exceptional luck is broken if you can add bonus dice and conditions.
    There are Conditions that let you directly make a failed roll into a successful roll and the principal balancing factor of Awakened magic is that more ambitious effects require more investment to maintain the same chance of success. A difference of four dice on a spellcasting roll is the difference between affecting a weak target and affecting a marginally strong target, or between affecting your personal space and affecting your personal garage, or getting an hour of benefit and getting a week of benefit.

    There becomes no reason not to have Exceptional Luck on at all times or use any Yantras beyond what's needed to push your dicepool above negative-ten if you can apply No-Strings-Attached Extra Dice and the standard Mess-With-Success Conditions to any and every spell you can cast. This isn't "I can hypothetically make anyone set about trying to kill themselves," this is "I have a Magic Ouroboros Shenanigan that means I can spend one spell control slot and then I don't need to bother with tools anymore."

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  • totalgit
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Psychic Domination is Potency-primary, having completely unrestricted commands requires Mana and half the spell's free Reach even with a rote, has no more influence over the target than making them act on a command with the resources at their disposal, is an Act of Hubris to use in such a fashion without Inuring the spell, and doesn't interfere with the fundamentals of spellcasting in a system where you push your limits by lowering your odds of success but only need one success to accomplish the spell.

    Dominating Jarvis into total susceptibility doesn't equip him with a gun to shoot himself with or transport him to a burning building to run into, and unless I'm super fine with Paradox I'd need a rote, a lot of dots in a ranged Skill, and an unimpeded line of sight to actually stand a chance of getting the guy without already having him basically at my mercy while I risk tanking my Wisdom to do this thing. Giving any one of my spells an unconditional bonus on par with a Mudra or the most invested Persona at no substantial risk or cost is not in a comparable position.

    Now put all that effort into explaining how exceptional luck is broken if you can add bonus dice and conditions. The last post on the "breaking exceptional luck" thread seems to say that +12 is really the limit your going to be getting after ages ritually casting where you cant fail a intervening roll, using mana per cast (cos you are using exceptional luck to cast a better exceptional luck) for what amounts to +6 potency.

    Direct damage spells, buffing spells etc gaining +6 potency after spending points of mana and spell control plus multiple ritual casting times on a spell that can get dispelled? Its really not that much of a problem if after almost a year nobody has commented on it since that thread.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by totalgit View Post
    But being able to mind control somebody to commit suicide at mind 2 isnt broken?
    Psychic Domination is Potency-primary, having completely unrestricted commands requires Mana and half the spell's free Reach even with a rote, has no more influence over the target than making them act on a command with the resources at their disposal, is an Act of Hubris to use in such a fashion without Inuring the spell, and doesn't interfere with the fundamentals of spellcasting in a system where you push your limits by lowering your odds of success but only need one success to accomplish the spell.

    Dominating Jarvis into total susceptibility doesn't equip him with a gun to shoot himself with or transport him to a burning building to run into, and unless I'm super fine with Paradox I'd need a rote, a lot of dots in a ranged Skill, and an unimpeded line of sight to actually stand a chance of getting the guy without already having him basically at my mercy while I risk tanking my Wisdom to do this thing. Giving any one of my spells an unconditional bonus on par with a Mudra or the most invested Persona at no substantial risk or cost is not in a comparable position.

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  • totalgit
    replied
    There was also this that mentions bonus dice to spellcasting from exceptional luck and nobody had other interpretations back then for it http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...nal-luck/page2

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  • totalgit
    replied
    Originally posted by Unahim View Post

    And do you think this interpretation is healthy to the game? The fact that Fate 2 is a pathway to getting 10 or so bonus dice on spellcasting rolls by itself doesn't strike you as broken?
    But being able to mind control somebody to commit suicide at mind 2 isnt broken?

    Are you remembering that any bonus over 5 requires a mana? Are you also forgetting that with fate 3 one could already without a interpretation get 8 again & rote quality on ritual casting via exceptional luck and superlative luck? (Which effectively doubles your dicepool, but wont add dice to allow you to take more spell factors)

    Abit of googling and this came up on 4chan last year and it was argued over and the conclusion i think (Dave also commented in that thread and didnt point out bonus dice to spellcasting wasnt possible i might add) was that if a mage wants to put all his eggs in one basket let him, he's using spell control slots and probably spending hours ritually casting to get there and its all fun and games until somebody dispels it.
    Last edited by totalgit; 08-05-2017, 03:21 AM.

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  • Falcon777
    replied
    Originally posted by Unahim View Post

    And do you think this interpretation is healthy to the game? The fact that Fate 2 is a pathway to getting 10 or so bonus dice on spellcasting rolls by itself doesn't strike you as broken?
    I completely agree with your conclusion. I do have to wonder why they didn't just mention a dice trick, though, especially since you can acquire dice tricks on spellcasting from other spells.

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  • Unahim
    replied
    Originally posted by totalgit View Post
    Monkeys paw can be used to give an items user/carrier/toucher either 9/8 again + 2 reach allow it to be used on spellcasting rolls OR bonus dice though not allow it to be used on spellcasting rolls or gain a condition again not allow it to be used with spellcasting.

    This is a exampleof a spell giving a boon without having a specific option in that spell to allow ALL boons to be used with spellcasting. That makes Exceptional luck an exception because that spell has a reach bonus to allow ALL boons to be used with spellcasting but its still not ambiguous
    And do you think this interpretation is healthy to the game? The fact that Fate 2 is a pathway to getting 10 or so bonus dice on spellcasting rolls by itself doesn't strike you as broken?

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  • Taldorblackfire
    replied
    I always read and interpreted that spell as well it seems plain as day it provides a BOON to spellcasting and it was not fixed in the Errata so in my understanding it is full RAW.

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  • totalgit
    replied
    Monkeys paw can be used to give an items user/carrier/toucher either 9/8 again + 2 reach allow it to be used on spellcasting rolls OR bonus dice though not allow it to be used on spellcasting rolls or gain a condition again not allow it to be used with spellcasting.

    This is a exampleof a spell giving a boon without having a specific option in that spell to allow ALL boons to be used with spellcasting. That makes Exceptional luck an exception because that spell has a reach bonus to allow ALL boons to be used with spellcasting but its still not ambiguous
    Last edited by totalgit; 08-03-2017, 07:19 PM.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    It's up to whether you want to see the section on Boons as authority and clarification, or if Exceptional Luck is an exception from that rule.

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  • totalgit
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    Then re-read the section. It's not that hard to see the ambiguity Satchel is talking about.
    Boons have 3 options:
    * Grant 9 or 8 again + affect spell casting
    * Grant bonus dice
    * Grant a number of conditions

    Exceptional luck says the boon can be applied to spell casting, so which ever boon you choose you can apply to spellcasting, whats ambiguous about it? Unless your saying the bonus dice or granting yourself conditions doesnt count as a viable boon? Where would you get that idea from?
    Last edited by totalgit; 08-03-2017, 07:01 PM.

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  • Poseur
    replied
    Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

    Satchel already mentioned that those are probably not supposed to be applicable to spells because they break the way spellcasting is meant to be implemented. That'd be right at the beginning of the 4th paragraph in their last post.

    And i wasn't talking about the Boon paragaphs either. I said you probably could make it work like totalgit thought it worked, with some creative thaumaturgy and a higher spelldot.
    I'm well awere of the things Satchel put in good words and how the Boons work and don't. As well as i don't either see the point to allowing that, and one could argue it's against the intent of the system to allow "spell-casting Steadfast" etc, i surely do, but it's still possible to do with the system.

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