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Mind magic and frenzy

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  • Mind magic and frenzy

    Since I can't find anywhere a reference to solve or clarify this: when a mage with mind magic (but the same could be applied to a vampire with dominate or presence) gives a command to a subject, if the victim suffers from frenzy, Kuruth, rage or basu im..etc..etc.. Does this "override" the mind control and set them free, or do they still have to obey the mind master since the duration of the spell/command is extended/one scene?

    For example, if I use mind magic and command a gangrel to stop and stand still, if by any chance he goes into frenzy Will he break free from mind magic?
    Same issue with a werewolf and rage or death rage.

    Thanks to anyone that will help cheers

  • #2
    The werewolf possibly will, but for a very strange reason: Assuming they were commanded in human form, entering kuruth will cause them to become larger. If the mage didn't increase the scale factor when they cast the spell to cover things up to size 7, this will mean the spell will stop working on them.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Elfive View Post
      The werewolf possibly will, but for a very strange reason: Assuming they were commanded in human form, entering kuruth will cause them to become larger. If the mage didn't increase the scale factor when they cast the spell to cover things up to size 7, this will mean the spell will stop working on them.
      Wow I honestly never thought about that do size factors matter even with an abstract concept like mind? I thought size factor was meant for "real" and solid things like matter corpses and living beings, or spirits and ghosts...
      Maybe the werewolf thoughts and mind become.. Bigger?
      Anyway Raw u might be right I need to re read that paragraph

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Lasombra View Post
        Wow I honestly never thought about that do size factors matter even with an abstract concept like mind?
        As the recent discussion about Area Scale has helped to underline, even if what they affect are notionally abstract things, spells themselves are not; a spell made to encompass a Size 5 being cannot maintain its effect usefully if the target then becomes Size 7.


        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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        • #5
          It's actually mentioned in the vampire book a bit. Dominate can direct the vampire's frenzy at another target, but it can't bring them out of it, or give them no target.

          Animalism also allows control over a frenzy-ing vampire, and there are some devotions of animalism to dampen the predatory aura but I don't think there is anything to end it.

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          • #6
            Yeah, I think dominate would have trouble controlling a werewolf in Kuruth. You're basically giving their rational mind instructions, but their rational mind is all "buddy, I'm not driving right now".

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            • #7
              The Mind arcana on the other hand can skip past the rational mind. Theoretically, one option is for a Mind Mage in a Hallow to rip out the goetia that represents the frenzy, it'd probably spiritually (or otherwise) cripple the werewolf or vampire since that aspect of their mind would be effectively removed from their mental makeup. You'd also have a frenzied goetia on your hands. Of course that would only work -if- the frenzy they experience is just a mental state. Whether or not it is, is in my opinion one of those questions for the ST to decide, but the results could be interesting either way. Again, theoretically, Life could calm a frenzy though it'd only work for werewolves, flood them with whatever hormones you need to calm something down, bam, no more frenzy. That does still fall into the realm of, -if- a frenzy is purely a function of the brain. Given vampires don't really have functioning brains and that werewolves don't really have fully physical brains I think I'd rule it as reaching some kind of halfway state where they need to attack, but can consciously cooperate with tricks or traps from others (Including consciously going after valid targets), that take advantage of that need, to prevent them from doing something they'll regret (more) when they come out of it.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                Yeah, I think dominate would have trouble controlling a werewolf in Kuruth. You're basically giving their rational mind instructions, but their rational mind is all "buddy, I'm not driving right now".

                Nevermind how difficult it'd be holding a Gauru's gaze while they are trying to eat you.

                Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                The Mind arcana on the other hand can skip past the rational mind. Theoretically, one option is for a Mind Mage in a Hallow to rip out the goetia that represents the frenzy, it'd probably spiritually (or otherwise) cripple the werewolf or vampire since that aspect of their mind would be effectively removed from their mental makeup. You'd also have a frenzied goetia on your hands. Of course that would only work -if- the frenzy they experience is just a mental state. Whether or not it is, is in my opinion one of those questions for the ST to decide, but the results could be interesting either way. Again, theoretically, Life could calm a frenzy though it'd only work for werewolves, flood them with whatever hormones you need to calm something down, bam, no more frenzy. That does still fall into the realm of, -if- a frenzy is purely a function of the brain. Given vampires don't really have functioning brains and that werewolves don't really have fully physical brains I think I'd rule it as reaching some kind of halfway state where they need to attack, but can consciously cooperate with tricks or traps from others (Including consciously going after valid targets), that take advantage of that need, to prevent them from doing something they'll regret (more) when they come out of it.
                That would still face a penalty equal to twice the Uratha's primal urge, on top of any other factors.

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                • #9
                  First off thank you all for ur replies, and from now on I will consider scale factors also for mind and abstract arcana. Second, I wanted to ask u about werewolf rage specifically.
                  It is stated in the werewolf rules for rage that "
                  any attempts to influence, intimidate, or otherwise change the
                  Uratha’s course of action by mundane or supernatural means suffer
                  twice the werewolf’s Primal Urge as a penalty. This is over and above
                  any Supernatural Tolerance (p. 160) applied to supernatural powers"

                  So I guess that a vampire or a mind mage will have an hard time trying to stop the raging beast since at primal urge 2 for example they will subtract 4 dices to their gnosis Arcanum or dominate pools...

                  But what about a werewolf that was already dominated / mind enslaved BEFORE the rage?
                  Will the command still be in place, or will the kuruth primal urge penalty call for a clash of wills or a reroll of the power?

                  To make a clear example, if a mind mage spent the necessary reaches winning the whitstand of the shapeshifter, and made the werewolf freeze in place for the entire scene, if by any means that same wolf enters in basu im or kuruth later he will remain paralyzed anyway?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lasombra View Post
                    First off thank you all for ur replies, and from now on I will consider scale factors also for mind and abstract arcana. Second, I wanted to ask u about werewolf rage specifically.
                    It is stated in the werewolf rules for rage that "
                    any attempts to influence, intimidate, or otherwise change the
                    Uratha’s course of action by mundane or supernatural means suffer
                    twice the werewolf’s Primal Urge as a penalty. This is over and above
                    any Supernatural Tolerance (p. 160) applied to supernatural powers"

                    So I guess that a vampire or a mind mage will have an hard time trying to stop the raging beast since at primal urge 2 for example they will subtract 4 dices to their gnosis Arcanum or dominate pools...

                    But what about a werewolf that was already dominated / mind enslaved BEFORE the rage?
                    Will the command still be in place, or will the kuruth primal urge penalty call for a clash of wills or a reroll of the power?

                    To make a clear example, if a mind mage spent the necessary reaches winning the whitstand of the shapeshifter, and made the werewolf freeze in place for the entire scene, if by any means that same wolf enters in basu im or kuruth later he will remain paralyzed anyway?
                    Depends: Did the freeze spell hampered the Uratha's sensory imput to the point that nothing can trigger it? Ot did some Elodoth switched that rage on? IMO, no rage if the scenario 1 is as I suspect, yes to scenario 2.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Malus View Post

                      Depends: Did the freeze spell hampered the Uratha's sensory imput to the point that nothing can trigger it? Ot did some Elodoth switched that rage on? IMO, no rage if the scenario 1 is as I suspect, yes to scenario 2.
                      I'll try to be more specific.
                      Let's say that I'm a desperate mastigos confronted by a werewolf and cornered. I use mind magic to dominate him with psychic domination and spend extra reach for size and type of command and i tell him to "freeze don't move no matter what".
                      An Elodoth see the mage working his curse and his companion mind blocked, so he uses his powers to cause him to rage hoping to free him from the spell.

                      Another case, the werewolf simply remains frozen in place under the spell command, the wizard calmly pulls out a silver bullet loaded gun and shoot the werewolf in the head. Will this break the spell and set the werewolf free to act and frenzy attacking the mage?

                      The problem is that as Raw there is no mention of combat or damage or frenzy as spell breaking factors.. So the werewolf would simply frenzy and stay still while the mage shoots his bullets.

                      On the other hand, one could argue that the werewolf simply cannot control himself so he cannot follow the command he was given during his previous state, since now is mind is completely overrun by irrational urge to destroy...

                      Personally as a storyteller I would alow frenzy or kuruth or rage as mind /dominate control breakers, possibly with a clash of wills

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                      • #12
                        I, personally, feel that were I the werewolf entering frenzy in this situation, I would be filled with the deepest most hate ridden rage imaginable, amped up to 11, towards the object of my frenzy. Unfortunately, because I am also supernaturally compelled not to move, I would not be able to move. But I would really, really want to. Being trapped in that kind of situation would be a psychological nightmare. However - if I recall, there -are- possible measures of control. You can postpone frenzy, you can enact it, or quell it - and you can direct it. None of these are easy - sometimes requiring the investment of merits or willpower, but in many cases they are possible. The Frenzy does not supernaturally compel you to move - it does however fill you with a supernatural, inescapable, rage - or fear, in some vampire's cases. That rage has consequences, and that is why you must move - because you are beyond the concept of anger, and suddenly rage incarnate. Your emotion causes your reactions. Unfortunately, the mage's commands do not tie into your emotion. He is not instilling in you a desire to remain still - he is giving you a command and you must obey. Were he to create a calm area around himself preventing you from having the will to attack, entering frenzy would provoke a clash of wills - but without that, I would say no - you're stuck.

                        In the case of the werewolf vs the Mind Mage with the Silver Gun - this depends. Did the Mage spend reach in order to allow the commands to be suicidal? If not, then the command is suddenly suicidal and does not need to be followed.

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                        • #13
                          Yeah, I'm not sure if by raw they should break out, but having a werewolf in kuruth just standing there seems... wrong.

                          "Stand still no matter what"
                          "I'm sorry, that didn't sound like 'indiscriminately murder everything in reach', try again."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jakondite View Post
                            I, personally, feel that were I the werewolf entering frenzy in this situation, I would be filled with the deepest most hate ridden rage imaginable, amped up to 11, towards the object of my frenzy. Unfortunately, because I am also supernaturally compelled not to move, I would not be able to move. But I would really, really want to. Being trapped in that kind of situation would be a psychological nightmare. However - if I recall, there -are- possible measures of control. You can postpone frenzy, you can enact it, or quell it - and you can direct it. None of these are easy - sometimes requiring the investment of merits or willpower, but in many cases they are possible. The Frenzy does not supernaturally compel you to move - it does however fill you with a supernatural, inescapable, rage - or fear, in some vampire's cases. That rage has consequences, and that is why you must move - because you are beyond the concept of anger, and suddenly rage incarnate. Your emotion causes your reactions. Unfortunately, the mage's commands do not tie into your emotion. He is not instilling in you a desire to remain still - he is giving you a command and you must obey. Were he to create a calm area around himself preventing you from having the will to attack, entering frenzy would provoke a clash of wills - but without that, I would say no - you're stuck.
                            The Uratha in basu-im who decidedly takes on his killing form and thus triggers wasu-im has no actual recognizable though process or understanding of the concept "to remain quiet" as far as I know. There is no way the issued command would be understood after all reason escapes the character.

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                            • #15
                              I agree that a werewolf in full basu Im who stands still while getting shot at doesn't make sense that's why even if there is no mention I would allow for a clash of wills at least as St.

                              Problem is that raw there is nothing stopping a mind mage from mind enslaving frenzy vampires and kuruth werewolves.

                              Maybe the core of the debate and that should redifine the problem is "does mind totally override both the conscious and unconscious mind (and the beast and rage too), and do the frenzy beast and basu im processes involve chemical brain, conscious or unconscious thoughts, or pure supernatural" magic'??

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