Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mind magic and frenzy

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Malus View Post

    The Uratha in basu-im who decidedly takes on his killing form and thus triggers wasu-im has no actual recognizable though process or understanding of the concept "to remain quiet" as far as I know. There is no way the issued command would be understood after all reason escapes the character.
    It is of my personal opinion that if this were the case, then instead of applying a penalty based upon primal urge to create effects that run counter to the actions of the Frenzy, that they would instead simply negate them. Even in the midst of frenzy, it is not impossible to command a wolf to stay still - however, it is certainly harder to make the spell stick. With that in mind, this situation gives an example where the spell has 'already' stuck. It's kind of similar to putting a helmet on after getting hit in the head - or, if I were to use mage terms, it'd be similar to applying a mind shield after the command to remain still had been given.

    Does this seem wrong? Absolutely. A werewolf should never be still in the middle of Kuruth. But just because it seems wrong doesn't mean that it's not the way that works or even not the way it -should- work. A Kuruth frozen solid by a mental command going to be very -clearly- seen as being held down by some mystical force by any individual who recognizes the Death Rage for what it is. And by Luna, if it's not going to be one of the strangest, creepiest, or otherwise most alien thing that any wolf who succeeds in not entering the Death Rage has ever seen - simply because to them, the idea that that is even possible feels wrong.

    Edit: Weirdly enough though, apply this same concept to a vampire and RAW you have a different story. They -do- negate the effects of social and mystical effects to cause them to act in a way contrary to their Beast. Hm.
    Last edited by Jakondite; 08-12-2017, 04:35 AM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Again: You cannot follow a command which you cannot possibly understand.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Malus View Post
        Again: You cannot follow a command which you cannot possibly understand.
        Do you have to? Your subconscious understands and locks down the body. Whether you consciously get it yourself is irrelevant. I don't think Mind magic necessarily booms a voice in your head "Hey, stand still! Ok?" and then rely on you obeying that voice either, so understanding seems wholly irrelevant.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Malus View Post
          Again: You cannot follow a command which you cannot possibly understand.
          I would be totally 100 per cent with you on this, IF we were talking about dominate.

          The problem with mind magic and with magic in general is that you completely rewrite the associated element of reality to suit your needs.

          When a mage issue a command with mind magic he doesn't simply says a command to you, he rewrites your mind so that you obey him effectively controlling your mind directly and gaining complete control over your concept of mind and thought.

          Language and understandable words or commands do not apply in my opinion to mind magic, since mind magic has purview over PURE THOUGHT and not just commands or suggestions. This is why there's an issue for me whether mind completely overrun any and all thoughts processes or it simply works like dominate and presence.

          If mind has really purview over any thoughts and mental impulse or command regardless of language barriers or emotions, then it defeats kuruth and frenzy as well. Which it could as well be the case, since we are talking about pure mind and not simply instructions to follow.

          While I do agree that a raging wolf shouldn't be stopped with a simple command previously issued, I see that that might ad well be the case Raw. I as a storyteller, would try to settle this with possibly a clash of wills.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Lasombra View Post

            I would be totally 100 per cent with you on this, IF we were talking about dominate.

            The problem with mind magic and with magic in general is that you completely rewrite the associated element of reality to suit your needs.

            When a mage issue a command with mind magic he doesn't simply says a command to you, he rewrites your mind so that you obey him effectively controlling your mind directly and gaining complete control over your concept of mind and thought.

            Language and understandable words or commands do not apply in my opinion to mind magic, since mind magic has purview over PURE THOUGHT and not just commands or suggestions. This is why there's an issue for me whether mind completely overrun any and all thoughts processes or it simply works like dominate and presence.

            If mind has really purview over any thoughts and mental impulse or command regardless of language barriers or emotions, then it defeats kuruth and frenzy as well. Which it could as well be the case, since we are talking about pure mind and not simply instructions to follow.

            While I do agree that a raging wolf shouldn't be stopped with a simple command previously issued, I see that that might ad well be the case Raw. I as a storyteller, would try to settle this with possibly a clash of wills.
            *nods* I can definitely see a case of house ruling this to be effective. When you consider the fact that the Vampiric Frenzy -does- prevent supernatural tamperings that go against their nature, it's quite possible that werewolf simply didn't address it because the game line doesn't have the ability to cause an individual to go against their nature with any particular gift. On the other hand, it's legit harder to avoid vampiric frenzy than it is Kuruth - so some games might qualify vampire's type of frenzy to be 'stronger' (a strange thought to me, to be sure).

            While there is something to be said about the raw horror that one might feel when they try to cause their packmate to frenzy and they still remain still, there is certainly nothing wrong with applying a clash of wills if you feel that's appropriate (especially if it's PvP - you want to be as fair as possible after all and give all players a fighting chance). If I applied this however, I would make a note that the clash is not against the frenzy itself, but against a supernatural compulsion caused by the frenzy to move and kill. In other words, if the mage wins and then later drops his spell, or the duration runs out: Bye bye everyone and everything

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Lasombra View Post

              I would be totally 100 per cent with you on this, IF we were talking about dominate.

              The problem with mind magic and with magic in general is that you completely rewrite the associated element of reality to suit your needs.

              When a mage issue a command with mind magic he doesn't simply says a command to you, he rewrites your mind so that you obey him effectively controlling your mind directly and gaining complete control over your concept of mind and thought.

              Language and understandable words or commands do not apply in my opinion to mind magic, since mind magic has purview over PURE THOUGHT and not just commands or suggestions. This is why there's an issue for me whether mind completely overrun any and all thoughts processes or it simply works like dominate and presence.

              If mind has really purview over any thoughts and mental impulse or command regardless of language barriers or emotions, then it defeats kuruth and frenzy as well. Which it could as well be the case, since we are talking about pure mind and not simply instructions to follow.

              While I do agree that a raging wolf shouldn't be stopped with a simple command previously issued, I see that that might ad well be the case Raw. I as a storyteller, would try to settle this with possibly a clash of wills.
              The concept of thought isn't available to a uratha in the throes of Kuruth, or even in much of non-Death Raging Gauru.

              That's why it's called Death Rage in the first place.
              Last edited by Malus; 08-12-2017, 05:27 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                I agree partially with you, and see what you mean. But it is not totally true that the concept of thought isn't available to an uratha in rage, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to influence or manipulate a raging uratha , and thus the paragraph where they wrote about the penalty for commanding a raging uratha wouldn't need to exist,
                Rage and the impulse of killing everything and everyone is a thought and an impulse, even if primordial and difficult to manipulate. (i quote from the book:
                any attempts to influence, intimidate, or otherwise change the
                Uratha’s course of action by mundane or supernatural means suffer
                twice the werewolf’s Primal Urge as a penalty.")"

                So it's probably possible to influence, intimidate and change the uratha course of actions, it's just very hard.


                Another objection i have to point out is that, (maybe words and meanings are confusing here)- Mind doesn't simply control thoughts emotions and processes, it pbobably control the very same Will of a being.

                Even if an uratha in basu im has no rational thought process, while in frenzy he still has to use his brain to focus his"will" on the act of destruction, and then giving the brain command to his muscles and reflexes to kill the prey. Mind has purview over basically anything that comes from the same very concept of Mind and brain, and consequently any kind of "will" to destroy, run, attack or anything.

                mind control the very same electric signals sent to your neurons that make u able to think, see, act and move. That'ts how thought and will work.

                What i'm trying to say here is that mind comes BEFORE the command and the thinking. It gets inside your very will to think and exists, and THEN it gets the work done, effectively rewriting your very same willpower.
                Mind manipulate and control basic impulses and intent , it doesn't need to elaborate on complex thoughts and commands or conditions. (althought if necesary it can do that too)

                If we consider that even a basu im war form uratha needs at very least a basic level of instinct to kill and will and needs to think and command his muscles and eyes to move, then Mind can impose himself on that too, thus rendering the werewolf unable to act even while in rage.




                Comment


                • #23
                  Is this because 2 players are using powers on each other or something? Cos if not i think you are thinking way to hard about it and just need to decide whats best for the story you wanna tell.
                  If its 2 players, one mage & one Werewolf then kek.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Malus View Post
                    That would still face a penalty equal to twice the Uratha's primal urge, on top of any other factors.
                    Difficulty of the task doesn't have much if anything to do with what I posted.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                      Is this because 2 players are using powers on each other or something? Cos if not i think you are thinking way to hard about it and just need to decide whats best for the story you wanna tell.
                      If its 2 players, one mage & one Werewolf then kek.
                      I was being a little bit philosophically nerd for the sake of debate and for fun, but yeah I still stand for a very simple and elegant clash of wills

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                        The Mind arcana on the other hand can skip past the rational mind. Theoretically, one option is for a Mind Mage in a Hallow to rip out the goetia that represents the frenzy, it'd probably spiritually (or otherwise) cripple the werewolf or vampire since that aspect of their mind would be effectively removed from their mental makeup. You'd also have a frenzied goetia on your hands.
                        If memory serves Dave said that werewolves, vampires, and basically any splat that isn't human or a mage doesn't have an Oneiros. So, would there even be a Goetia that represented the Beast in vampires or a Werewolf's death rage?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Oh, yeah, he did.

                          Yeah, so goetia removal ain't gonna work here.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ever Professional View Post
                            If memory serves Dave said that werewolves, vampires, and basically any splat that isn't human or a mage doesn't have an Oneiros. So, would there even be a Goetia that represented the Beast in vampires or a Werewolf's death rage?
                            Good point. Well, that's just one method, Mind would still work on some level I imagine.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                              Good point. Well, that's just one method, Mind would still work on some level I imagine.
                              I imagine on some level it would work. I haven't run a mage chronicle yet, and I imagine we'll get some answers at some point in a supplement book or something.

                              Though depending on the ST they might let Death work on ripping out a Vampire's Beast or Spirit to bring a werewolf out of death rage.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ever Professional View Post

                                I imagine on some level it would work. I haven't run a mage chronicle yet, and I imagine we'll get some answers at some point in a supplement book or something.

                                Though depending on the ST they might let Death work on ripping out a Vampire's Beast or Spirit to bring a werewolf out of death rage.
                                Fundamentally screwing with a template like that requires archmastery on the very least.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X