Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Template Modification

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Template Modification

    Would you permit the Practice of Perfecting to directly improve Major Templates? When presented with these options I laughed and gave a hard "No", but I'm curious what you think. These were considered acceptable in a game.

    Examples Given:
    Prime spell that adds to a mage's Obsession limit. (!!!)
    Mind spell that gives anyone additional Aspirations (more of a general enhancement.) (!!!)
    Prime spell that increases your Yantra limit. (!)
    Prime spell that increases your mana limit. Not just using tass batteries you need to tap with Prime (which is legal), but a direct improvement. (!)
    Possibly a Prime spell that reduces your paradox dice per reach? Wasn't clear (! Infinity if so)
    Prime spell that increases spell control (!!! Can't even)
    Time spell (BEFORE Master level. This is still perfecting) that reduces your ritual casting interval. (!!)

    Personally, I feel Major Templates should be forbidden from interference by 1-5 magic. In 1e (which, I know, isn't entirely valid anymore) you couldn't even touch Major Templates until 7. It violates the game pretty hard in every direction. What's next, giving vampires greater blood pools? The only exception I can think of is giving mortals an Obsession, which seems to be a very unique effect. I'd never allow them, I think they're vastly out the range for mages and are a swift path to utter mage dominion, and making your Gnosis a joke for anything but raising Arcana limit, but what do you think?


    We don't allow mages to cast spells, since this is the most unbalancing rule of all.

  • #2
    I don't think it's so black and white. Sure, you probably shouldn't let people mess with fundamental balancing concerns like Spell Control for free or let them have tons of free xp by handing out Obsessions and Aspirations, but stuffing a few points of extra Mana in your Pattern? Adding a handful of dice to a non-instant spell via Yantras? That is incredibly small potatoes, and imo pretty clearly within Prime's purview since it already has spells that buffs Yantras and puts Mana in things.

    Comment


    • #3
      Most of your examples could be doable with Patterning, given a lenient Storyteller. The logic being that Patterning spells change the fundamental nature of its subjects. Except the ones regarding Paradox and Spell Control, not just because of balance issues but because they represent things that are outside Awakened control.

      Giving Obsessions to Sleepers might require Archmastery, despite being one of the more simpler effects. You are after all imprinting a foreign quality into a Pattern. Sounds like the Practice of Entities (7 dot).


      MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

      Comment


      • #4
        Giving an Obsession to a Sleeper requires Making. There's literally a spell in the book that does exactly that. It's called "Forge Purpose".

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
          Giving an Obsession to a Sleeper requires Making. There's literally a spell in the book that does exactly that. It's called "Forge Purpose".
          Oops. Indeed there is.

          Hmm... I wonder if this means anything on the nature of what Obsessions really are in the setting. It's almost like a piece of equipment you put on somebody, instead of an organic part of the person. (Then again, organs can be grown and surgically implanted, so I'm probably reading too much into this.)


          MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

          Comment


          • #6
            Short answer? Hell no.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jachra View Post
              Would you permit the Practice of Perfecting to directly improve Major Templates? When presented with these options I laughed and gave a hard "No", but I'm curious what you think. These were considered acceptable in a game.

              Examples Given:
              Prime spell that adds to a mage's Obsession limit. (!!!)
              Mind spell that gives anyone additional Aspirations (more of a general enhancement.) (!!!)
              Prime spell that increases your Yantra limit. (!)
              Prime spell that increases your mana limit. Not just using tass batteries you need to tap with Prime (which is legal), but a direct improvement. (!)
              Possibly a Prime spell that reduces your paradox dice per reach? Wasn't clear (! Infinity if so)
              Prime spell that increases spell control (!!! Can't even)
              Time spell (BEFORE Master level. This is still perfecting) that reduces your ritual casting interval. (!!)

              Personally, I feel Major Templates should be forbidden from interference by 1-5 magic. In 1e (which, I know, isn't entirely valid anymore) you couldn't even touch Major Templates until 7. It violates the game pretty hard in every direction. What's next, giving vampires greater blood pools? The only exception I can think of is giving mortals an Obsession, which seems to be a very unique effect. I'd never allow them, I think they're vastly out the range for mages and are a swift path to utter mage dominion, and making your Gnosis a joke for anything but raising Arcana limit, but what do you think?

              No template mods until Imperial Practices. In 2e the practices are said to be exactly the same as 1e so not until arcana at 7 would i allow any of this.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jachra View Post
                Would you permit the Practice of Perfecting to directly improve Major Templates? When presented with these options I laughed and gave a hard "No", but I'm curious what you think. These were considered acceptable in a game.

                Examples Given:
                Prime spell that adds to a mage's Obsession limit. (!!!)
                Mind spell that gives anyone additional Aspirations (more of a general enhancement.) (!!!)
                Prime spell that increases your Yantra limit. (!)
                Prime spell that increases your mana limit. Not just using tass batteries you need to tap with Prime (which is legal), but a direct improvement. (!)
                Possibly a Prime spell that reduces your paradox dice per reach? Wasn't clear (! Infinity if so)
                Prime spell that increases spell control (!!! Can't even)
                Time spell (BEFORE Master level. This is still perfecting) that reduces your ritual casting interval. (!!)

                Personally, I feel Major Templates should be forbidden from interference by 1-5 magic. In 1e (which, I know, isn't entirely valid anymore) you couldn't even touch Major Templates until 7. It violates the game pretty hard in every direction. What's next, giving vampires greater blood pools? The only exception I can think of is giving mortals an Obsession, which seems to be a very unique effect. I'd never allow them, I think they're vastly out the range for mages and are a swift path to utter mage dominion, and making your Gnosis a joke for anything but raising Arcana limit, but what do you think?
                All of these would definitely be under the domain of archmastery, the practice of Entities (7 dots) specifically. Anything that directly alters a major template falls under this. You can do things like protect vampires from sunlight with the regular practices (Shielding), depending on ST judgment, but that's a workaround, and only would give you a Clash of Wills to defend against sunlight. Straight up removing the sunlight weakness of a vampire would be archmastery.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jachra View Post
                  Would you permit the Practice of Perfecting to directly improve Major Templates? When presented with these options I laughed and gave a hard "No", but I'm curious what you think. These were considered acceptable in a game.

                  Examples Given:
                  Prime spell that adds to a mage's Obsession limit. (!!!)
                  Mind spell that gives anyone additional Aspirations (more of a general enhancement.) (!!!)
                  Prime spell that increases your Yantra limit. (!)
                  Prime spell that increases your mana limit. Not just using tass batteries you need to tap with Prime (which is legal), but a direct improvement. (!)
                  Possibly a Prime spell that reduces your paradox dice per reach? Wasn't clear (! Infinity if so)
                  Prime spell that increases spell control (!!! Can't even)
                  Time spell (BEFORE Master level. This is still perfecting) that reduces your ritual casting interval. (!!)

                  Personally, I feel Major Templates should be forbidden from interference by 1-5 magic. In 1e (which, I know, isn't entirely valid anymore) you couldn't even touch Major Templates until 7. It violates the game pretty hard in every direction. What's next, giving vampires greater blood pools? The only exception I can think of is giving mortals an Obsession, which seems to be a very unique effect. I'd never allow them, I think they're vastly out the range for mages and are a swift path to utter mage dominion, and making your Gnosis a joke for anything but raising Arcana limit, but what do you think?
                  My automatic reaction to your question was a hard 'No', but after taking a moment to think about it I think I'll instead revise that to a 'Yes, but'. Cleanly modifying a template is something that can (and should) only be able to be done with Archmastery, that isn't something that I'd probably budge against. That said, I would like to emphasize on the word 'Cleanly'. I would, as an St, allow a player to attempt to modify templates using 4th-5th dot magic. The problem is without the magical knowledge/might of an Archmaster, a normal mage is going to end up with all sorts of unintended side effects, most of which they likely won't be able to perfectly fix even when attempting to put things back the way they were originally.

                  So while they might, be able to get what it is the were originally going for, it will almost certainly not come without a price much steeper than they would likely be willing to pay.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think some of these effects could be possible before Archmastery, but as others have said, would at least be Patterning effects. The spells that should definitely be off limits are the ones that directly or indirectly influence Paradox (more Spell control, less Paradox per Reach, etc).


                    Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      On further study, Forge Purpose is pretty clear that, while it can give a mortal an Obsession, it cannot increase the maximum Obsession limit of a Mage (it only replaces) - and if Making can't do that, Perfecting sure as heck cannot.

                      Yes, though, I agree - until it's contradicted, Template modifications are clearly and definitively reserved for the Practice of Entities.
                      Last edited by Jachra; 09-14-2017, 01:12 PM.


                      We don't allow mages to cast spells, since this is the most unbalancing rule of all.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A couple of these I'd be okay with as high level Legacy attainments with significant drawbacks.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by saibot View Post
                          I think some of these effects could be possible before Archmastery, but as others have said, would at least be Patterning effects. The spells that should definitely be off limits are the ones that directly or indirectly influence Paradox (more Spell control, less Paradox per Reach, etc).
                          All of the listed examples directly modify game mechanics that exist to balance a mage's power level. One of them even contradicts the book's guidelines (Reducing ritual cast interval is reserved for high-level Time only). At least one of the spells is called out directly in Imperial Mysteries. With Prime 7, you can do the following: "Create adamas in the form of an advanced enchantment. Change the conditions by which a target regains Mana, the size of his Mana pool, or how many points he can spend a turn." The good news is, that this gives the players a reason to seek out an archmaster, which is a quest entirely by itself! Finding the archmaster is step 1, and then that has to be followed up by an epic quest, of course, before the archmaster will bestow a miracle on the cabal members.
                          Last edited by projectmoon; 09-15-2017, 11:22 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by projectmoon View Post

                            All of the listed examples directly modify game mechanics that exist to balance a mage's power level. One of them even contradicts the book's guidelines (Reducing ritual cast interval is reserved for high-level Time only). At least one of the spells is called out directly in Imperial Mysteries. With Prime 7, you can do the following: "Create adamas in the form of an advanced en-
                            chantment. Change the conditions by which a target regains Mana, the size of his Mana pool, or how many points he can spend a turn." The good news is, that this gives the players a reason to seek out an archmaster, which is a quest entirely by itself! Finding the archmaster is step 1, and then that has to be followed up by an epic quest, of course, before the archmaster will bestow a miracle on the cabal members.
                            I'd be careful in throwing around the word "balance" regarding mages, it triggers quite a percentage of the fandom.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                              A couple of these I'd be okay with as high level Legacy attainments with significant drawbacks.
                              * takes a mental note to self: I now know what to give some Reaper and Banisher Legacies as their higher Attainment effects.


                              MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X