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Alternate Arcana Attainments

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  • #16
    Ok, I admittedly missed that. But you seem to have missed the sentence ​directly preceding it:

    Lesser Utilities are Attainments that fit into the purview of the Arcana, but don’t map to the Practices and rely more on a general understanding of the Arcanum in question than of specific spells.
    And I'm sorry, but mucking about with range is definitely a Space thing.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Elfive View Post
      Ok, I admittedly missed that. But you seem to have missed the sentence [I]​directly preceding it:



      And I'm sorry, but mucking about with range is definitely a Space thing.
      As I already said, I believe it does fit. Forces has plenty of range expanding tricks already like Zoom In.

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      • #18
        Zoom In is a light bending trick. That's totally in Forces wheelhouse. What aspect of Forces inherently lends itself to "far away from me"?

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        • #19
          I'm not sure you’re looking at this the right way, it’s not about “far away from me”, it’s about not touching the dangerous energies they control. The sidebar is the text going out of its way to point out that Sensory Range is basically a requirement for using Forces which puts Sensory Range inside Forces wheelhouse.

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          • #20
            Range complements Forces nicely, but that doesn't mean range is part of Forces' purview. Just because Sensory Range is particularly useful for Forces (or even a requirement for some Forces spells) doesn't mean increased range is an inherent part of the Arcanum.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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            • #21
              Yeah, I really don't think that's how it works.

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              • #22
                If you need a battery to make a thing work, almost all of the time the battery will be considered part of the thing its powering. The battery in this case is Sensory Range.

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                • #23
                  It's not about being part of it, it's about being able to create the battery.

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                  • #24
                    That's not how Arcana work, though. I repeat, just because something is useful for one Arcanum doesn't mean it's part of that Arcanum.
                    Now, if you want to base Arcana Attainments on utility rather than purviews, be my guest. In that case I'd support your suggestion since it does make sense that mages that deal with Forces do want an easier time using Sensory Range. But nothing in electricity, gravity, radiation, sound, light, heat, fire, weather, or movement implies that extended range is a direct part of Forces.

                    Besides, if I want to buy batteries I don't go to a camera store just because cameras are useless without them. I either go to a general store (i.e. use a Reach) or to an electronics store where batteries are a natural part of their range of products (i.e. put the sensory range Attainment where it actually makes sense: Space).
                    Last edited by Tessie; 10-04-2017, 07:37 AM.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                    • #25
                      Tessie It is called a Lesser Utility after all.

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                      • #26
                        If that's what you want. But you did argue that your suggestion fit this piece of text: "Lesser Utilities are Attainments that fit into the purview of the Arcana". That's what I was opposing.
                        Last edited by Tessie; 10-04-2017, 08:17 AM.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                          Range complements Forces nicely, but that doesn't mean range is part of Forces' purview. Just because Sensory Range is particularly useful for Forces (or even a requirement for some Forces spells) doesn't mean increased range is an inherent part of the Arcanum.
                          This. So much this. A good example of how a Forces based attainment could compliment the senses: Spend one mana, multiply the sensititvity ("range") of your sight and hearing by your Forces rating for the rest of the scene. (or perhaps rather a flat amount as utility attainments usually don't work off of the Arcanum rating.) That makes thematically sense as it interacts with Forces. Also Satchels suggestion of spending Mana instead of a reach for advanced potency makes sense (I do admit that with advanced potency being less generally useful than many other reaches it's less attractive) or my own where you get + potency on spells without long duration. Those make sense thematically, as it increases the "Force"/power of your spell. Sure the mystic potency is more a purview of Prime than Forces, but the Forces arcanum itself resonates with power, so it makes sense thematically in the end.

                          And yes it is never outright stated that an attainment needs to be thematically connected to the Arcanum in question. But it makes sense. Every other attainment published is. In fact the whole magic system is working within thematic logic. In fact magic in MtAw is entirely reliant on symbolism. The supernal realms themselves literally are a collection of symbols and thus all power derived from them works through symbolism.

                          I'm not sure you’re looking at this the right way, it’s not about “far away from me”, it’s about not touching the dangerous energies they control. The sidebar is the text going out of its way to point out that Sensory Range is basically a requirement for using Forces which puts Sensory Range inside Forces wheelhouse.
                          No. The sidebar points out a problem you can encounter when relying on using the Forces Arcanum. It's a difficulty and they probably would not point it out if it was supposed to be easily circumvented with a lesser utility attainment. And the logic in that quote is very much off, if it's a requirement for using Forces it's not part of its purview, it's a requirement. Again Tessie put it well, a battery isn't under the purview of cameras just because cameras need them to function.

                          That said it's a rather interesting topic in general and some of the attainments have irked me in the past, so maybe I should write some homebrew for this myself next.


                          My Mage 2e Homebrew

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                            I'm not sure you’re looking at this the right way, it’s not about “far away from me”, it’s about not touching the dangerous energies they control. The sidebar is the text going out of its way to point out that Sensory Range is basically a requirement for using Forces which puts Sensory Range inside Forces wheelhouse.
                            The sidebar is the text going out of its way to point out that Forces pose a dramatically more immediate danger to the mage commanding them.

                            Aimed Spells don't pop their effects before they hit their targets, but Forces spells have a higher likelihood of being effecting in ways that don't require direct "core" contact with something to deal collateral damage. It's not "throwing a fireball will inevitably burn you," it's "throwing a fireball may set things on fire other than what you intended."

                            Further, Sensory Range isn't just "the effect doesn't touch you," it's "the effect manifests on top of the target and stays with it even if it moves" and "with an additional Reach, you can target something you're viewing remotely." That's maybe useful to the Arcanum dealing with effects that tend to propagate, but it's not especially fitting as the more-accessible unique benefit of that Arcanum any more than Time In A Bottle would be suitable as a Lesser Utility Attainment.

                            Permanency makes sense as a Matter Attainment because its effect is just "changes you make with Matter last longer with less effort." Cutting out half the cost of remote casting because you think the dangers of magical arson stem from something besides being on the same block as your spell doesn't track similarly; Forces is a Reach-intensive Arcanum to use directly and in-person with or without a Range modifier, because it's thematically one of the loudest of the Gross Arcana.


                            Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                            Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                              The sidebar is the text going out of its way to point out that Forces pose a dramatically more immediate danger to the mage commanding them.

                              Aimed Spells don't pop their effects before they hit their targets, but Forces spells have a higher likelihood of being effecting in ways that don't require direct "core" contact with something to deal collateral damage. It's not "throwing a fireball will inevitably burn you," it's "throwing a fireball may set things on fire other than what you intended."

                              Further, Sensory Range isn't just "the effect doesn't touch you," it's "the effect manifests on top of the target and stays with it even if it moves" and "with an additional Reach, you can target something you're viewing remotely." That's maybe useful to the Arcanum dealing with effects that tend to propagate, but it's not especially fitting as the more-accessible unique benefit of that Arcanum any more than Time In A Bottle would be suitable as a Lesser Utility Attainment.

                              Permanency makes sense as a Matter Attainment because its effect is just "changes you make with Matter last longer with less effort." Cutting out half the cost of remote casting because you think the dangers of magical arson stem from something besides being on the same block as your spell doesn't track similarly; Forces is a Reach-intensive Arcanum to use directly and in-person with or without a Range modifier, because it's thematically one of the loudest of the Gross Arcana.
                              Hence my idea of an attainment that allows you to protect yourself from the effects of your spells.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post

                                Hence my idea of an attainment that allows you to protect yourself from the effects of your spells.
                                The only problem with this is that you don’t need protection from your spells as much as you need protection from the subjects of your spells.

                                Satchel when Permanence was revealed people flipped their shit and declared it OP. If you’re going to use that as an example of something that “makes sense” then for my house rule I’m just going to say wait. Sensory Range could be described as emanations of will exerted on the subject in mimicry of the influence of sunlight or gravity from the moon on Earth. The BS thematic explanation is available with a little creativity. Mechanically, I think it’s an asshole move to have one arcana that has what basically amounts to a Reach tax applied to it just because it’s “volatile.”

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