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  • #16
    Originally posted by Suleri Drals View Post

    Thank you for the answer but I do not understand; finally Camelot was created thanks to the mundanely or by omens ? is he broke the Pax Arcanum or not ? this is the generaly result of this kind of omen ?
    Camelot was created mudanely, he did not break the pax arcanum. (if it advances you towards ascention, it can be argued that it doesn't break the pax, since the pax exists to help (or at least to not hinder) Mages' ascent in the first place).
    But I haven't gotten around to finishing Imperial Mysteries, so I might be wrong.

    Originally posted by Suleri Drals View Post
    New Q : A ghost-mage can have Numinas based on his Legacy ?
    Yes.

    Considering ghost-mages can have "Influence: Mind" in place of Mind (and the same for other arcana), I really don't think there's a problem with Legacy Attainements becoming Influences/Numinae.


    Bearer of the legacy of Trauma Bear
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    • #17
      I would generally not allow an Attainment to be a Numina, at least not as long as I was sticking to the party line of "ghosts are not souls". Legacies are just too intrinsically linked to the soul. A ghost mage is not fully pulling power from the supernal realms, it just uses a handful of rotes and powers to make echoes of the supernal.

      Rules-wise this is close enough to magic, except on how paradox manifests. Yet this is an important thematic distinction, as the dead hurt those they want to protect most with paradox. Attainments would get around this theme by not inflicting paradox on the anchor. So, that is another reason (beyond the party line) that I'm not a big fan of the idea.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by amikaligula View Post
        I would generally not allow an Attainment to be a Numina, at least not as long as I was sticking to the party line of "ghosts are not souls". Legacies are just too intrinsically linked to the soul. A ghost mage is not fully pulling power from the supernal realms, it just uses a handful of rotes and powers to make echoes of the supernal.

        Rules-wise this is close enough to magic, except on how paradox manifests. Yet this is an important thematic distinction, as the dead hurt those they want to protect most with paradox. Attainments would get around this theme by not inflicting paradox on the anchor. So, that is another reason (beyond the party line) that I'm not a big fan of the idea.
        It could be said that since ghosts are shells/echoes of the soul (sort of.. they were described like that a couple times), it's attainement numinae are likewise echoes of what the individual's soul used to be.

        Although thinking on it, it might be better to leave it more like what rotes become - they can use the power, but it's still more like the magic they knew than the soul they were, still causing paradox and whatnot. Mainly because in many cases, the attainements are things that could be accomplished with regular spells (though clearly not in all cases, like the Roses of Eden)


        Bearer of the legacy of Trauma Bear
        Need a dice-roller? Check out Dicemat.

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        • #19
          Another newby question, as I make my way through the books:

          Where exactly do most mages' top-level loyalties lie? Their cabal, their consilium, their order, their legacy (if applicable)? Somewhere else, or is it so individual that there is no standard? It seems like they are pulled in a lot of directions, with different splats making it seem like whatever they are covering takes precedence. For example, I'm reading Guardians of the Veil at the moment, and it strongly implies that Guardians consider their order tops. Conversely, when I was reading Legacies: the Sublime, tight-knit Legacies like the Sodality of Tor or the Daksha make it seem like their legacy is the most important to them.


          My W20 Play-by-Post Game

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Formosus View Post
            Another newby question, as I make my way through the books:

            Where exactly do most mages' top-level loyalties lie? Their cabal, their consilium, their order, their legacy (if applicable)? Somewhere else, or is it so individual that there is no standard? It seems like they are pulled in a lot of directions, with different splats making it seem like whatever they are covering takes precedence. For example, I'm reading Guardians of the Veil at the moment, and it strongly implies that Guardians consider their order tops. Conversely, when I was reading Legacies: the Sublime, tight-knit Legacies like the Sodality of Tor or the Daksha make it seem like their legacy is the most important to them.
            That's that.

            Most are attached to their order; but some can being more loyals to their friends,ect...
            Some Legacies are very organized with a ideological ideas; more invested than in their order.

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            • #21
              NEW Q
              Beyond Ascension
              Is Ascension the highest state a mage can aspire
              to? Most believe so. A smaller number think that if
              ultimate enlightenment is possible at all, Ascension
              must be its prerequisite. Some religious mages place
              the highest realm within the doctrines of their faiths
              — in the afterlife perhaps, though Awakened culture
              is biased against believing anything a Sleeper religion
              has to say about the cosmos. The best evidence
              they have for a realm beyond the Supernal manifests
              in beings that speak of a highest Principle and radiate
              a power distinct from Supernal Mana.
              Sometimes, though, mages encounter phenomena
              that point to enlightenment beyond the structure of
              Above and Below: holy men and women whose
              presence inspires extraordinary transformations and
              around whom destiny constructs portentous events.
              Despite the fact that these sages are surrounded by
              fraudsters and fanatics, they seem to be at peace
              with the Lie around them. Some mages envy them.
              Some despise their complacency
              .
              I don't really get this;what does that refer to ?

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              • #22
                Most possibly "the principle/empyrean" - check against some promethean saturnine nights and the imperial mysteries box.


                Historian ~ www.cronistasdastrevasbr.com

                I currently ST a... MtAW 2e campaign called "Axis Mundi - Si Vis Pacem"

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                • #23
                  EDIT: I missed that there was a second page, so this is largely already answered above.

                  Originally posted by Suleri Drals View Post
                  Thank you for the answer but I do not understand; finally Camelot was created thanks to the mundanely or by omens ? is he broke the Pax Arcanum or not ? this is the generaly result of this kind of omen ?
                  Ok, assume the same caveats. I'm still grasping at the story myself. But...

                  Merlin wanted to seal an omen about a perfect society, a utopia. This omen also included that such a place will fall from within. So he came to the physical where the work getting an Omen going is done. He met Arthur in the flesh, was there when everything started, and stayed (more or less) through to the end. He didn't create it with magic, he used magic like shown in the stories to help those around him create Camelot. Camelot was a real place on the physical world built on the foundation of men and their drives. Merlin was behind the scenes influencing and overseeing the whole thing.

                  Merlin didn't wish Camelot into being, he worked very hard with mortals to build it day by day.

                  I don't see anything here that breaks the Pax, but I don't have the pieces of the story AND I don't have a perfect grasp on the book Imperial Mysteries.

                  Camelot itself, it's rise and fall, WAS the Omen. After camelot fell, Merlin was able to Seal the Omen. After it was sealed, he was able to Exalt it using Imperial Rites to permanantly entwine it with reality. Even though an Exarch tried to remove it, we still have stories, legends, and artifacts from Camelot because it was Exalted using an Imperium Rite.


                  Last edited by lunavoco; 04-24-2014, 01:45 PM.


                  Continuing to look for a nWoD group in Pennsylvania along 81 near Carlisle.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lunavoco View Post
                    EDIT: I missed that there was a second page, so this is largely already answered above.



                    Ok, assume the same caveats. I'm still grasping at the story myself. But...

                    Merlin wanted to seal an omen about a perfect society, a utopia. This omen also included that such a place will fall from within. So he came to the physical where the work getting an Omen going is done. He met Arthur in the flesh, was there when everything started, and stayed (more or less) through to the end. He didn't create it with magic, he used magic like shown in the stories to help those around him create Camelot. Camelot was a real place on the physical world built on the foundation of men and their drives. Merlin was behind the scenes influencing and overseeing the whole thing.

                    Merlin didn't wish Camelot into being, he worked very hard with mortals to build it day by day.

                    I don't see anything here that breaks the Pax, but I don't have the pieces of the story AND I don't have a perfect grasp on the book Imperial Mysteries.

                    Camelot itself, it's rise and fall, WAS the Omen. After camelot fell, Merlin was able to Seal the Omen. After it was sealed, he was able to Exalt it using Imperial Rites to permanantly entwine it with reality. Even though an Exarch tried to remove it, we still have stories, legends, and artifacts from Camelot because it was Exalted using an Imperium Rite.

                    Thanks you too.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Suleri Drals View Post
                      NEW Q
                      I don't really get this;what does that refer to ?
                      Okay, so imagine if an early first century priest encountered Jesus.

                      And Jesus... didn't seem to fit into any other category of supernatural being, and they couldn't really figure out a satisfactory explanation for what he was.

                      And Jesus seems to preach a message that posits happiness and fulfillment within the constraints of the Lie, and it seems to work.

                      Or, any historical preacher or philosopher. Buddha, Confucius, any modern individuals one might encounter; they seem to have something genuine worked out that doesn't fit in the spiritual perspectives of mages.

                      Like, none of these stand directly as proof of God or whichever else, but they make some mages wonder.

                      The point is that, despite what mages know, the World of Darkness is big enough and complex enough and mysterious enough that not everything seems to follow their precepts.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • #26
                        This is a little granular but maybe you all can offer some insight or opinion. The Echo Walkers Legacy are fixated on observing the Angels of the Aether (the Ones Before) in order to emulate them. They customarily resort to a pretty dastardly spell which does potentially serious harm to it's victim. With the material in Summoners, we see that it is possible to summon such an angel. While it is very hard, it would take a depraved Echo Walker to reason that the savings in effort are worth the harm done to an innocent whose soul is dislodged.

                        What reason would an Echo Walker have to use the old technique in a post-Summoners world?

                        (I am not trying to pick it apart. I really want the legacy to work the way it is written, but I'd like the best rationale for it)

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                        • #27
                          It's not just about seeing angels, it's about viewing a prototypical form of humanity that they want to shape themselves in emulation of.

                          Or rather, that prototypical form is the type of angel they want to see.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                          • #28
                            I've noticed a few parallels in the game that seem to treat the Abyss as another Arcanum. For example, their is an Exarch of the Abyss (the Gate) and also an Aeon of the Abyss (the Other/Old Man/etc). Why is this? Does this mean that there could be Archmage Siddha of the Abyss?

                            There's also a related parallel in Astral Realms. The citadel of the Other is called "The Hollow, Citadel of the Other and the Abyss". This mimics the naming structure of the citadels of the other Aeons. For example, "~The Fallen Tree of Arcadia, Citadel of Gloriana Temporae and Medraut" is the citadel of the Aeons of Time (Gloriana Temporae) and Fate (Medraut). This is...confusing because it seems to indicate that there are two Aeons in the Hollow. Does this mean that the Abyss itself is the Aeon of the Abyss? Does the Other represent something else? Am I overthinking things tremdously when the writers just copied the structure of the previous citadels for symmetry?


                            Call me Count .

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 123456789blaaa View Post
                              I've noticed a few parallels in the game that seem to treat the Abyss as another Arcanum. For example, their is an Exarch of the Abyss (the Gate) and also an Aeon of the Abyss (the Other/Old Man/etc). Why is this? Does this mean that there could be Archmage Siddha of the Abyss?

                              There's also a related parallel in Astral Realms. The citadel of the Other is called "The Hollow, Citadel of the Other and the Abyss". This mimics the naming structure of the citadels of the other Aeons. For example, "~The Fallen Tree of Arcadia, Citadel of Gloriana Temporae and Medraut" is the citadel of the Aeons of Time (Gloriana Temporae) and Fate (Medraut). This is...confusing because it seems to indicate that there are two Aeons in the Hollow. Does this mean that the Abyss itself is the Aeon of the Abyss? Does the Other represent something else? Am I overthinking things tremdously when the writers just copied the structure of the previous citadels for symmetry?
                              No. The abyss isn't considered an arcana. Anyone who tried to proclaim they were a siddha of the abyss would be branded a Bodhisattva. The Siddha don't like the abyss. They oppose it more than any group because it attempts to destroy reality and by extension the arcana. The abyss doesn't have two representatives because it's not part of the supernal structure it's outside of it. It's powerful enough to have a dream representative because of what it represents but doesn't have symmetry. It was one writer who would have done that section if not the book. So the symmetry is there on purpose.

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                              • #30
                                I don't have the impression that the Siddha really hate the Abyss; they do not touch him; but as their relationship with Exarchs they are satisfied that there is a rough filter to limit the number of Ascendeds and just take away human concepts, (The Exarchs want to rule over humanity and want to become down-to-earth concepts of temporal power, The Siddha affect esoterics symbols want to merge with their favorite arcana and do not care about humanity) they are like businessmen who finance distant dictatorships for their interest without getting their hands dirty.

                                They tacitly support the Exarchs; and therefore (even if they probably not admit) the Abyss.

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