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  • Yes. And spells are not phenomena under Arcanum's purview under the discussed interpretation. So if spells are not cast, you can't see them, unless you are using Prime Sight, which specifically mentions that you can see spells. Also, note that you said that ASight shows all "supernatural phenomena", while it only cares to highlight related ones, which isn't really supported by these quotes. In fact, if the "highlighted" is equal to "registered by Active Sight" (and that would be consistent with how it is used in the text), then it actually ONLY show supernal things that are under your Arcanum's purview...which "spells" aren't.

    "Prime Sight highlights anything the mage can use as a Yantra,
    and the presence (if not the composition) of any Awakened spell
    or Attainment effect. "
    So if you exclude spells of an Arcanum from that's Arcanum purview, logically, you should follow up all the way and make them invisible to Active Sight and to protect the niche of Prime Arcanum, which has "seeing spells" as it's specifically called out Active Sight Effect.
    Last edited by WHW; 04-20-2017, 12:40 AM.

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    • "related to the Arcana used" is not the same as "under the Arcana's purviews". A Supernal entity of the Arcanum in question is undoubtedly related to the Arcanum used, but is also undoubtedly not under its purview. Hence, it'd be highlighted, but you couldn't use, say, a Ruling Spirit spell to command a Totem of the Primal Wild.

      But also of big import here is that Active Mage Sight is a refinement of Peripheral Mage Sight, which alerts a Mage to the presence of all magical phenomena. An Obrimos's Peripheral Sight might cause them to see an ethereal blue flame appear over a strange box that appeared in their Sanctum, which turns into a small bonfire when they expand it to Active Sight, but if the magical effect itself isn't related to Prime or Forces, it won't "highlight" and indicate its connection to that Arcanum.

      Active Mage Sight shows any and all magical phenomena you can sense through the lens of the Arcana you're using it with. "Highlighting" is different to seeing in the first place. Otherwise, there'd be no need to highlight; it'd simply be "shows".

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      • It actually is the same, because exact wording is:
        "In addition to the above, any supernatural effect falling under
        the purview of the Arcanum that the mage can see is highlighted
        if she is using the correct Sight.
        "

        So if a "Life Spell" does not fall under "Life" Purview, you cannot see it. Also, Active Sight doesn't grant you a new sense - it actually only allows you to reinterpret what physical senses give you within symbolism of your Ruling Path.

        "Mage Sight highlights all phenomena related to the Arcana used,
        but making sense of the torrent of Patterns is often difficult, and
        the mage can only determine the symbols related to phenomena
        within her senses
        her Sight won’t let her see through walls
        or perceive entities and objects in a state of Twilight. Unveiling
        spells and several Attainments allow more specialized analysis of
        a mage’s surroundings, either adding capabilities to Mage Sight
        or granting extra senses for more information."

        If you can't see a spell normally, you can't analyze it with Active Sight, because you need to see it with your own eyes in the first place!


        Note that the text uses "highlighted" pretty much as a equivalent for, em, "shown by magic sight". Also, logically, if Active Sight only shows you spells that are currently cast, it doesn't show you spells that are not being cast, which also includes spells that have been successfully cast in the past.

        (By the way, I'm playing a sleep deprived mentally and physically exhausted devil's advocate here. I agree that MSight should show you spells. But I also argue that "Life Spell" should fall under "Life Purview".)

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        • By the way, I love the fact that text talks about Unveiling spells modifying how Magic Sight works, and then you find 0 spells that do that in the book.

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          • Originally posted by Axelgear View Post

            But also of big import here is that Active Mage Sight is a refinement of Peripheral Mage Sight, which alerts a Mage to the presence of all magical phenomena. An Obrimos's Peripheral Sight might cause them to see an ethereal blue flame appear over a strange box that appeared in their Sanctum, which turns into a small bonfire when they expand it to Active Sight, but if the magical effect itself isn't related to Prime or Forces, it won't "highlight" and indicate its connection to that Arcanum.

            .
            "Note that Peripheral Mage Sight is triggered by all supernatural events regardless of Arcana, but
            unless the mage uses an applicable Active Sight she gains no
            information about the phenomenon — only that it must be
            related to an Arcanum she didn’t use."
            So Active Sight doesn't help you with something that Peripheral detected if you didn't look at it with proper Arcanum.

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            • Alright, two things:

              1. The "In addition to the above" bit you quoted follows the "Mage Sight highlights all phenomena related to the Arcana used" section.

              2. Mages can see spells normally. Or, at least, sense them. It's how Peripheral Sight works. The reason spells being cast gets brought up is because Peripheral Sight doesn't do that. Nimbus flares happen after the spell is cast, but Active Sight shows you the build-up too.

              The text also doesn't use "highlight" as equivalent for "shown by magic sight". Animals fall under Life's purview, and, as such, are highlighted by Life Sight. If "highlight" is a synonym for "see", apparently Mages can't see animals without using Life Sight? Same goes for Prime Sight highlighting Yantras. Why would they need Mage Sight to see a wand?

              Highlight means highlight. It does not mean make visible.

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              • They don't need a Mage Sight to see a wand, but they need to see a Wand. They also need to see the wand (or touch it, or hear it, or smell it) to see that it's a Wand. Ditto for animal - you see an animal, Life Sight allows you to reinterpret it as a Animal.

                In addition to above follows the "Each Arcanum has a minor mechanical effect, relating to the
                base level of perception granted by Active Sight." section, which lists numerous Active Sight effects for specific Arcana...including " presence (if not the composition) of any Awakened spell
                or Attainment effect." for Prime.

                Look at the sidebar - it actually discusses if Death Sight would "register" a Promethean at all. This alone means that Active Sight doesn't necessarily "register" all supernatural things, only these that fall/relate to their purview.

                If highlight doesn't mean visible, then Active Sight doesn't make *anything* visible, because it doesn't say anything about actually making anything visible. Only that you get to hallucinate connections of the Arcana that...yeah, highlight things.

                "The mage hallucinates, seeing the connections of the Arcana all around her.
                Mage Sight highlights all phenomena related to the Arcana used,
                but making sense of the torrent of Patterns is often difficult, and
                the mage can only determine the symbols related to phenomena
                within her senses — her Sight won’t let her see through walls
                or perceive entities and objects in a state of Twilight."

                I wonder what a person without preconceptions about Mage and how stuff in Mage works would see this, actually. It doesn't appear to be very helpful to uninitiated and I'm starting to wonder if I'm running it correctly in my home games...

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                • Anyway, I'm going to sleep, but here is less facetious note:
                  I always assumed that "highlight" means that your hallucinations conspire to bring something to your attention using your Path and Nimbus symbolism.

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                  • Actually, I think we've kinda stumbled upon something important here: You're right; Active Mage Sight doesn't show you things (with a few minor exceptions, like Nimbuses, etc.). All it does is highlight things you can see with your Peripheral Sight and your humdrum mortal senses. It highlights phenomena and shows connections, but doesn't actually provide any new sensory data; just information about what is already detected.

                    As such, your Peripheral Sight shows you the presence of a spell, and then Prime Sight would say "Yep, this is Awakened magic, alright". Your mortal eyes show you a shadow in an alleyway, and Life Sight tells you "This is a living creature". And so on.

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                    • I asked this in another thread but thought here would be more relevant. So Imbued items, not alot of crunchy rules about them so far, Hopefully SoS will help with them? Anyways the question which tbh might have already been asked, ive not googled this yet, bad me!

                      Mage A creates a ring on invisibility imbuing forces 3 "invisibility" spell into the ring, he has its activation be twisting the ring on your finger tho this could be anything. He gives his ring to person B they attempt to use the ring, What happens a) the ring goes invisibile, b) the person goes invisible, c) Person B decides what goes invisible and he could choose person C??

                      The attainment says mage A is still in control of the spell and can alter its spell factors, so she decides when the item is imbued and can change it later? When making the ring Mage A decides that option b will happen, but later can make it option a?

                      How do spell factors work with imbued items, the dicepool is the arcana level of the spell + users gnosis? This wont let a mortal get many spell factors in so this ring is pretty shit tbh? and thats IF they can actually use spell factors.

                      A sleeper twists ring and has 3 dice to become invis for 3 seconds? The making mage controls spell factors but even if they got to choose them it'd be 1 dice for 6 seconds?

                      How does reach even work with imbued items? Does the maker or user decide the amount of free reaches? I assume the first is always used for instant casting anyways or do imbued items default of instant casting? You'd obv want to use reach to make the ring Advanced duration so yrou invisible for a useful about of time but is this set at creation or each casting?
                      Last edited by totalgit; 04-20-2017, 03:27 AM.

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                      • If you imbue an item, the item casts the spell essentially as intended. That is, the person (and the ring) turns invisible.

                        Being in control of the spell means the Mage can cancel/end it or reduce spell factors at any time. You can't change the spell after the fact in any other way without another spell, and the spell, in this case, is the imbuing itself.

                        Spell factors work the same as always.

                        Also, Invisibility is Forces 2 now, since it's a Veiling spell.

                        ---

                        My own question: What's the "typical" legal status of Mage cults? Are Pentacle Mages allowed to found cults? Is showing off an attainment a violation of the Lex Magicka?

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                        • Mage cults are probably alright, the GotV and the SL certainly use them frequently for wildly different purposes. FC probably use them a lot to so they can work in their Techne.

                          Unless they're specifically prohibited then I assume Mages treat them like any other bits of territory they acquire by marking them somehow and posting a keep out sign.

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                          • Originally posted by Axelgear View Post
                            If you imbue an item, the item casts the spell essentially as intended. That is, the person (and the ring) turns invisible.

                            Being in control of the spell means the Mage can cancel/end it or reduce spell factors at any time. You can't change the spell after the fact in any other way without another spell, and the spell, in this case, is the imbuing itself.

                            Spell factors work the same as always.

                            Also, Invisibility is Forces 2 now, since it's a Veiling spell.

                            ---
                            The invis spell makes a subject invisible, the caster can determine that subject each casting, can the user of the imbued item do the same or is it set an creation?
                            What do you base the free reach of the spells on? The arcanum level of the caster (gg sleepers), the arcanum level of the spell? Does the user get to add additional reach making the spell suffer paradox (which the imbued item merit says can happen) but how many dice paradox is base, based on the gnosis of the creator or user? (#edit, its user or 1 if sleeper)

                            Spell factors work as always? So can the user choose each casting or is it locked in place at creation? Does that mean -2 dice for +1 spell factor makes the ring a chance dice?

                            the item casts the spell essentially as intended. That is, the person (and the ring) turns invisible.
                            Intended by whom, the creator? Does this mean i can setup the invis spell with as many spell factors as i want, imbue it into the spell forcing whoever uses the item to take the penalties when using the item?

                            The mage intends for this invis spell to last a month. Lets say he has Gnosis 3 Prime 3 (to imbue) & Forces 2 meaning his base dicepool for Invisibility of 5, he has to use the free reach for instant casting, he has another for advanced duration and would usually take a -4 penalty for a months duration, his intention. How does this translate when another person tries to use this ring? (would need +1 target factor to make both person and ring invis? another -2 penalty?)

                            a) they roll arcanum + gnosis always with a -4 penalty and it always causes paradox with a base dice of 2 (gnosis of creator) cos its baked into the item at creation. So a sleeper has a chance dice? Note the -4 penalty is due to the creators free duration from having forces 2, the user doesnt have forces does he get the base -6 because the creator intends for the spell to last a month even tho he doesnt want it too and only needs if for an hour?

                            b) each use the user gets to decide for himself how long he wants the spell to last and on whom/what invisibility is cast, he somehow has knowledge of spell factors and reach and can use them as in a normal casting but is limited by a shitty dicepool of the arcanum of the spell?

                            Sorry but its still really unclear how this all pans out..but thats for correcting the typo in spell level anyways. Feel free to provide an example imbued item if its easy it'd help alot. Seems to me, all imbued items with a lvl 1 spell effect needing any amount of duration, additional targets or potency to avoid withstand (anything needing sympathy, good luck getting the potency vs withstand for imbued scrying mirrors to work) are going to be close to a chance dice unless the person has a high gnosis??
                            Last edited by totalgit; 04-22-2017, 12:01 AM.

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                            • What doesn't count as a temporal sympathy yantra? For example, if you cast a spell targeting a subject's Unchanged past, does their current self not constitute a material yantra? If you cast a spell targeting them 2 days in the past, does their current self not constitute a material yantra? Does it not constitute at the very least, a symbolic yantra? How far can you take this idea? Is a 30-year-old person a symbolic yantra for their 5 year old self? And if you want to target their 5-year-old self, will a photo from when they were seven years old suffice?

                              How specific do temporal sympathy yantras have to be?

                              It seems weird to me that with Time, you absolutely need a connection to a specific time, but with space, you have the option to use a connection to a person, without needing connections to any of the places that they've been.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Strill View Post
                                What doesn't count as a temporal sympathy yantra? For example, if you cast a spell targeting a subject's Unchanged past, does their current self not constitute a material yantra? If you cast a spell targeting them 2 days in the past, does their current self not constitute a material yantra? Does it not constitute at the very least, a symbolic yantra? How far can you take this idea? Is a 30-year-old person a symbolic yantra for their 5 year old self? And if you want to target their 5-year-old self, will a photo from when they were seven years old suffice?

                                How specific do temporal sympathy yantras have to be?

                                It seems weird to me that with Time, you absolutely need a connection to a specific time, but with space, you have the option to use a connection to a person, without needing connections to any of the places that they've been.
                                Temporal sympathy Yantra? What are you referring to? Both the Sympathetic Range and Temporal Sympathy Attainments requires a sympathy Yantra, which is a subst of Tool Yantras. There is no separate class of sympathy Yantras specific for Temporal Sympathy. You only need an object that represents the subject, which the subject itself never counts as. Thankfully, something simple like a photograph or a lock of hair counts as sympathy Yantra, so you can use that.

                                Also, you no longer exactly cast spells "at" the subject in the past, thanks to the errata. In other words, no fireballs from the future suddenly appearing at your face.

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