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  • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

    Temporal sympathy Yantra? What are you referring to? Both the Sympathetic Range and Temporal Sympathy Attainments requires a sympathy Yantra, which is a subst of Tool Yantras. There is no separate class of sympathy Yantras specific for Temporal Sympathy. You only need an object that represents the subject, which the subject itself never counts as. Thankfully, something simple like a photograph or a lock of hair counts as sympathy Yantra, so you can use that.

    Also, you no longer exactly cast spells "at" the subject in the past, thanks to the errata. In other words, no fireballs from the future suddenly appearing at your face.
    Under the section for Sympathy yantras, it specifically distinguishes between yantras for temporal sympathy and for spacial sympathy. For example, Temporal Sympathy yantras have to be tied to the subject, as they were at the time you want to target, while spacial sympathy yantras just have to be tied to the target.

    "Material sympathy represents the subject as he is now, or at the time the mage wants to affect him. It could be a piece of the target’s physical substance, or a recent photograph or recording; an item the subject created within a month is also acceptable."

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    • Strill Their Unchanged past is recent enough that the person would still count as a sympathetic Yantra targeting that point in their history. Unchanged for a person is generally somewhere between a scene and a day depending on if anything significant has happened to them. Obviously they can stand in as a Representation or Symbolic Yantra of themselves, and in terms of the Sympathetic casting it makes literally no difference anyway.
      Last edited by Mrmdubois; 04-21-2017, 01:22 PM.

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      • So in other words, you don't need to do anything to satisfy a the temporal sympathy yantra requirement, except spend a yantra slot.

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        • Originally posted by Strill View Post
          So in other words, you don't need to do anything to satisfy a the temporal sympathy yantra requirement, except spend a yantra slot.
          No. It has to fulfill the requirements for a Sympathetic Yantra. What you asked about was if the person themselves fulfills that requirement for Temporal Sympathy, the answer is obviously yes.

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          • Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

            No. It has to fulfill the requirements for a Sympathetic Yantra. What you asked about was if the person themselves fulfills that requirement for Temporal Sympathy, the answer is obviously yes.
            In order to cast a temporal sympathy spell, you have to have the person in question available in the first place, unless you're invoking spacial sympathy. So you never actually need to go out of your way to find a temporal sympathy yantra. If you're casting with just temporal sympathy, the person is already there to be used as a yantra. If you're using time and space, the spacial sympathy yantra covers time as well. So either way, the temporal sympathy yantra isn't something you ever need to concern yourself with, except for the yantra slot it consumes.

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            • Do Archmasters age?
              Their mortal body is a construct they reform every time they re-enter the Phenomenal world, but does that contruct have to be the same age it was as you last discorporated it?
              I'm seeing a very real "Alberto Malich" possibility here. A Mage who has to ration every second he spends back in the physical world, because he's only got so many left.
              Spending them one by one, inching closer to the Supernal, and requiring extreme pressure for him to decide to leave the Astral or his Soul.

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              • Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                What you asked about was if the person themselves fulfills that requirement for Temporal Sympathy, the answer is obviously yes.
                People don't count as symbolizing themselves for the obvious reason that that's goofy nonsense that defeats the point of having a special category of magical aid. A separated piece of them, sure, relatives, yes, but "I'm using Steve as a symbol of Steve" has never been a terribly sound framing for how to leverage sympathy against people.


                Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  People don't count as symbolizing themselves for the obvious reason that that's goofy nonsense that defeats the point of having a special category of magical aid. A separated piece of them, sure, relatives, yes, but "I'm using Steve as a symbol of Steve" has never been a terribly sound framing for how to leverage sympathy against people.
                  But I'm not. I'm using Steve as a symbol of younger Steve.

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                  • Originally posted by Strill View Post
                    But I'm not. I'm using Steve as a symbol of younger Steve.
                    Younger Steve is part of the set of all things Steve here referred to as "Steve." This is pedantry that you do not need to engage in if your aim is to understand how the rules are intended to work to encourage particular character behaviors. The subject of a spell is not their own referent.


                    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                    • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      Younger Steve is part of the set of all things Steve here referred to as "Steve." This is pedantry that you do not need to engage in if your aim is to understand how the rules are intended to work to encourage particular character behaviors. The subject of a spell is not their own referent.
                      I don't think it's pedantic or goofy nonsense at all. If I understand you correctly, pulling up the camera on your phone, and pointing it at the target of your spell would satisfy a representational sympathetic yantra, but simply looking at them wouldn't. If anything, that explanation seems like the goofy nonsensical interpretation, especially if you're just trying to cast Postcognition on yourself.

                      I'm just trying to understand what obstacle a temporal sympathy yantra allows the mage to overcome. At first I thought it was meant to be a connection to a specific time in that person's past, since that's what the sympathy yantra description says, but then people told me that it's not a connection to a moment in time, it's a connection to a person. Then I wondered why you would need a special extra connection to the person themselves when they're already physically present. Is it that that you have to be able to touch and manipulate the sympathetic yantra, and people won't usually let you do that?

                      The whole point of Yantras is that you use them as an example of what you want your spell to do so that it's easier to visualize exactly what you want, but if a temporal sympathy yantra is meant to represent a person, and not a moment in time, why can't you just visualize the person in your spell from looking at them?
                      Last edited by Strill; 04-21-2017, 10:59 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        People don't count as symbolizing themselves for the obvious reason that that's goofy nonsense that defeats the point of having a special category of magical aid. A separated piece of them, sure, relatives, yes, but "I'm using Steve as a symbol of Steve" has never been a terribly sound framing for how to leverage sympathy against people.
                        I'm pretty sure you fulfill the requirements to be a Material Sympathetic Yantra to yourself, which is the strongest level of connection a Sympathetic Yantra can get, it seems weird to me that you wouldn't then be able to use yourself to fulfill the possibilities of the other two simply because you're pushing further back in time. At the very least nothing can escape its past entirely as its past marks shape its present condition, and you thus carry your past with you on at least the symbolic level.

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                        • Originally posted by Strill View Post
                          At first I thought it was meant to be a connection to a specific time in that person's past, since that's what the sympathy yantra description says
                          If you didn't have the person on hand this would be true.

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                          • Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                            If you didn't have the person on hand this would be true.
                            The problem with that interpretation is that you explicitly HAVE to have the person on hand in order to use temporal sympathy, unless you are also using spacial sympathy.

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                            • Originally posted by Strill View Post
                              The problem with that interpretation is that you explicitly HAVE to have the person on hand in order to use temporal sympathy, unless you are also using spacial sympathy.
                              Pretty much. Most Acanthus mostly do Time stuff to themselves by default because it's a lot easier. Though if you've got Space 2 and Time 2 it's just another point of Mana and a more specific Yantra to affect something via Spatial and Temporal Sympathy simultaneously so big whoop.

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                              • Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                                Pretty much. Most Acanthus mostly do Time stuff to themselves by default because it's a lot easier. Though if you've got Space 2 and Time 2 it's just another point of Mana and a more specific Yantra to affect something via Spatial and Temporal Sympathy simultaneously so big whoop.
                                You haven't answered the question. Do you need a connection to a time in a person's past, or to a person themselves? The Sympathy yantra description mentions multiple times, having a connection to a time in a person's past.

                                And if you do need a connection to their past, how lenient is the system? I can imagine two extremes: one in which a Time mage who wants to cast postcognition regularly has to keep photos of themselves on each day so that they have the right yantra to look back at their past on the day they want, and another extreme in which a Time mage just needs any old photo of themselves in the past.

                                For that matter, does Postcognition even require the attainment? It says with Time 2 you can look back further than Unchanged, but doesn't mention needing to use the attainment.

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