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  • Dont think there is anything obvious that happens when you actually cast Stealing Fire so outside observers and the target wont notice any obvious magic so no paradox. In what way powerful? Turning sleepers into sleepwalkers to avoid paradox is cool but then Stealing Fire has to beat withstand and is min Gnosis + 3 ( if stealing fire is lowest spell) - 2 dicepool so it has its own problems. I can see it being good vs a small number of sleepers but probably harder to use in larger crowds.

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    • Originally posted by totalgit View Post
      Dont think there is anything obvious that happens when you actually cast Stealing Fire so outside observers and the target wont notice any obvious magic so no paradox. In what way powerful? Turning sleepers into sleepwalkers to avoid paradox is cool but then Stealing Fire has to beat withstand and is min Gnosis + 3 ( if stealing fire is lowest spell) - 2 dicepool so it has its own problems. I can see it being good vs a small number of sleepers but probably harder to use in larger crowds.
      well I would hope so. I'm still not sure about how many people who ST for this game and think that "the number of people who can actually pull this off is slim to none" is a reasonable balance for any combinations of stuff that sounds scary. I generally assume that mages who have 4 gnosis or higher are extremely rare, extremely rare.

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      • I think for setting implications it's good to make certain Rotes rare as well. Like a Stealing Fire Rote won't be looked on too favorably by Guardians as it would promote abuse with all the extra Reach.

        Same goes for Lethal damage spells. I don't think those Rotes should be getting traded around like candy IMO. You can wipe out a whole cabal with one of these spells pretty easily if you get a large enough dice pool. I'm sure it happens, but the setting doesn't make sense if this stuff is too easy to get. You should probably have to work for it.

        Different tables might have different opinions.

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        • Originally posted by Johnny Awesome View Post
          I think for setting implications it's good to make certain Rotes rare as well. Like a Stealing Fire Rote won't be looked on too favorably by Guardians as it would promote abuse with all the extra Reach.

          Same goes for Lethal damage spells. I don't think those Rotes should be getting traded around like candy IMO. You can wipe out a whole cabal with one of these spells pretty easily if you get a large enough dice pool. I'm sure it happens, but the setting doesn't make sense if this stuff is too easy to get. You should probably have to work for it.

          Different tables might have different opinions.
          I think that is par for the course because neophytes are never taught 4 dot spells (for obvious logistical reasons but it does nip this one in the bud).

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          • Its worth noting that using Stealing Fire on Sleepers might be a neat way to get around Paradox in the moment, you are still going to have Wisdom problems when the spell elapses and the poor sods sanity crumbles away under the weight of the Supernal Secrets they have witnessed. Hmmm, I imagine its a spell frequently inured for this reason.

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            • Katana1515

              You could call in the Guardians once it's all done.
              Have them scrub the memories away and all that before Stealing Fire wears off.
              That way they can shoulder the brunt of it if you don't have it inured.

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              • Originally posted by Yelesom View Post
                Katana1515

                You could call in the Guardians once it's all done.
                Have them scrub the memories away and all that before Stealing Fire wears off.
                That way they can shoulder the brunt of it if you don't have it inured.
                Part of Guardian philosophy is that you should clean up your own messes, if something bad happens (Especially to you) you deserve it. They act when it's beyond the control of basically anyone else including the responsible party. If they do have to clean it up for you, then they'll make it very harsh for you indeed.

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                • Simple question, I think. Does using a Rote automatically make a spell obviously a spell? For example, if my character is casting Clear Thoughts as a Rote on a Sleeper and tells them "it's a part of the therapy" can that track, or is a Rote automatically a whole lot of glossia (I assume not without a High Speech Yantra) and gesticulating (reading the Core Book I'm thinking... probably not, but Mudra requirements have me guessing)?

                  My assumption (for the example) is that if you can get the Sleeper one on one and convince them that what you're doing is a natural but unconventional form of therapy, and build it in, then it's possible to cast without triggering The Curse, but my own bias towards character goals have me wondering...


                  Blasphemy? No, it is not blasphemy. If God is as vast as that, he is above blasphemy; if He is as little as that, He is beneath it.
                  - Mark Twain, a Biography

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                  • Rotes aren’t necessarily obvious.

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                    • You can cast Rotes without using the Mudra (and, in fact, cannot use the Mudra if you're casting from a Grimoire) so there's no reason for it to be more obvious than any other spells. Mudras are likely obvious to other mages, but normal people will probably just find them to be weird gestures or poses. Most people would not assume that it's something magical.


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                      • Originally posted by Yelesom View Post
                        Katana1515

                        You could call in the Guardians once it's all done.
                        Have them scrub the memories away and all that before Stealing Fire wears off.
                        That way they can shoulder the brunt of it if you don't have it inured.

                        I think most pentacle mages would think three times before drawing the Guardians attention to their flagrant use of magic on and around Sleepers. Obviously interpretations of the Orders varies from table to table OOC and Consillia to Consillia IC, but I generally wouldnt be portraying the Guardians as something like the 'clean up teams' from Men In Black who are never more than a phone call away.

                        That leads nicely to my question. Am I correct in understanding that 'memory scrubbing' of Sleepers is a pretty difficult feat for Mind Mages below the rank of Master? Would the use of either Memory Hole or Psychic Reprogramming on a Sleeper be subject to either Paradox or Dissonance, punishing the caster, and ensuring the spell will eventually fail.


                        Edit: On the question about the obviousness of Rote Mudra's the 1e Order books had lots of examples that varied between quite obvious spellcasting gestures, to very negligible and subtle ones. I imagine that a trained eye could pick them out though, you might offer your PCs dice-rolls to ID npcs using more subtle gestures, perhaps with a bonus if they share an Order.
                        Last edited by Katana1515; 11-18-2017, 07:10 AM.

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                        • Paradox Risk requires that something beyond explanation occurs, or that something “natural” have a clearly unnatural source in the actions of the Mage.

                          Dissonance is always a risk, but may never happen depending on how subtley the Mage buries the lede.

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                          • Vampires have Strix. Werewolves have idigam. Changelings have the Huntsman. Do Mages have this kind of highlighted antagonist in 2ed? If yes who is it

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                            • Originally posted by qendi View Post
                              Vampires have Strix. Werewolves have idigam. Changelings have the Huntsman. Do Mages have this kind of highlighted antagonist in 2ed? If yes who is it
                              The Fallen World.

                              Explanation is here.

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                              • Nofather is dead on, but I reckon another reason why this is the case is that Mages are literally drowning in high end antagonists. The Mage splats unparalleled ability to hop between planes and tendancy to meddle means that your PC's can find themselves contending with Bound Gods, Astral representatives of abstract concepts, potent lords of shadow choirs, impossible gulmoths born of their own hubris, Cthonic monsters from the depths of the Underworld etc etc. The appearance of Exarch sent Ochemata or fickle Supernal entities is just the icing on the horror-cake.

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