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  • When I ran an Imperial Mysteries game, one of my players wanted to be a ghost archmage. I vetoed on the logic that being a ghost is an anchored and lessened state that didn't really make sense for Crossing the Threshold. Having said that, I could see a Death Archmage voluntarily becoming a ghost lich and using imperial magic to evade the downsides, or maybe even pursuing some secret ritual to become a ghost as part of becoming an archmaster.


    2E Legacy Updates
    Brotherhood of the Demon Wind
    Choir of Hashmallim (plus extra Summoning content)
    Storm Keepers

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    • If I have the Informed Condition on a subject would it be more worthwhile to resolve it in order to answer a specific question, or to save it and ask specific questions using Divination?

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      • Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
        If I have the Informed Condition on a subject would it be more worthwhile to resolve it in order to answer a specific question, or to save it and ask specific questions using Divination?
        If you got Informed from a source that allows it to provide a Beat, that spending the Condition first is probably best, since it also helps avoid Condition pile-up.

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        • What are some things that would normally be considered morally good that would still typically be considered Acts of Hubris?

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          • Originally posted by Ashenrogue View Post
            What are some things that would normally be considered morally good that would still typically be considered Acts of Hubris?
            Wisdom is not morality, but rather more about "ends justify the means" and losing control of yourself (with magic or otherwise). So of course it is possible to have something that serves the "Greater Good" that is also an Act of Hubris. Murdering the Seer oppressing Sleepers might serve the greater good, but it's still an Act of Hubris.

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            • Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
              If you got Informed from a source that allows it to provide a Beat, that spending the Condition first is probably best, since it also helps avoid Condition pile-up.
              What if it doesn't allow a Beat because it's from an attainment?

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              • Originally posted by projectmoon View Post

                Wisdom is not morality, but rather more about "ends justify the means" and losing control of yourself (with magic or otherwise). So of course it is possible to have something that serves the "Greater Good" that is also an Act of Hubris. Murdering the Seer oppressing Sleepers might serve the greater good, but it's still an Act of Hubris.
                I mean I hear people say that it isn't morality, which is why I'm asking to see if there are things that are morally good that would be considered acts of hubris. And I'm not talking about obviously evil acts done for 'The Greater Good'. I'm talking about acts that would be considered morally good that would also be unWise. So far, the only real things that are considered to go against Wisdom are things that are considered morally wrong, I figure there has to be something that is considered a good thing to do morally that also goes against Wisdom.
                Last edited by Ashenrogue; 01-01-2018, 02:16 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Ashenrogue View Post
                  I mean I hear people say that it isn't morality, which is why I'm asking to see if there are things that are morally good that would be considered acts of hubris. And I'm not talking about obviously evil acts done for 'The Greater Good'. I'm talking about acts that would be considered morally good that would also be unWise.
                  Binding a powerful and dangerous spirit to seal it away comes to mind.


                  Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                  Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                  • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                    Binding a powerful and dangerous spirit to seal it away comes to mind.
                    That's a good start. Is there any situation in which something like healing would be an act of hubris barring the risk of exposing magic/triggering Dissonance? Stopping someone from dying maybe?

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                    • Originally posted by Ashenrogue View Post
                      That's a good start. Is there any situation in which something like healing would be an act of hubris barring the risk of exposing magic/triggering Dissonance? Stopping someone from dying maybe?
                      'When innocent bystanders are affected by your character’s spells or actions, she is at risk as well.' Is under High Wisdom. Altering a sapient being's nature long-term is under Medium.

                      The Act of Hubris section is less than a page long they aren't exactly hiding.

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                      • Originally posted by nofather View Post

                        'When innocent bystanders are affected by your character’s spells or actions, she is at risk as well.' Is under High Wisdom. Altering a sapient being's nature long-term is under Medium.

                        The Act of Hubris section is less than a page long they aren't exactly hiding.
                        I guess I really need to be more specific here. I was talking more mid range and lower when it comes to Wisdom, where 99% of characters are going to fall. I'm looking for ideas for non-immoral acts (that don't outright rely on negligence) that might count as acts of hubris and situations to see them applied that would commonly affect more than a small subset of PCs. Sealing dangerous entities was a pretty good example, though I'm looking for more like it.
                        Last edited by Ashenrogue; 01-01-2018, 05:02 AM.

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                        • Originally posted by Ashenrogue View Post
                          I guess I really need to be more specific here. I was talking more mid range and lower when it comes to Wisdom, where 99% of characters are going to fall. I'm looking for ideas for non-immoral acts (that don't outright rely on negligence) that might count as acts of hubris and situations to see them applied that would commonly affect more than a small subset of PCs. Sealing dangerous entities was a pretty good example, though I'm looking for more like it.
                          Posting the relevant section for my point. You got me as my sleeping pills kicked in and I'm feeling chatty.

                          This is the last section under Medium/Understanding Wisdom, ranging from 7-4. 'Forcing a sapient being (whether a Sleeper, spirit, or anything else) to act counter to its interests, altering its nature long-term, or binding it to a task all risk degeneration, as does deliberate and premeditated murder and violence that leaves its victim with long-term injury.'

                          Long term injury. If you go around removing peoples limbs in such a way that they will have to deal with it long-term. In werewolf we have a fetish that lets you lop off a limb, bam. Spend Essence or Negotiate to Activate it. Hit someone, bam, they've lost an arm or a leg. So some mage decides he likes that, and he makes his own item that does it. It just chops off peoples legs, maybe from a distance, he doesn't even have to hit them and their legs just plop off. Sooner or later, you'll get to Wisdom 3. I think it's sort of fair, that's not the kind of action an 'understanding' person might take. I'm building up, we can probably agree that's not the 'non-immoral act' you were looking for.

                          But it also says 'altering its nature long-term.' So finding Matt Murdock, the young child from the news who was publicly blinded by a toxic waste spill, and healing his eyes, would be an Act of Hubris. For some reason I want to trot out the depressives, and alcoholics and other people with addiction. You go over there to them, find the addicts, maybe hit them at a methadone clinic or something, but you cast a spell, and bam, their Addiction Condition is gone. You tie it off, give it an indefinite duration, and these people are free to live their lives without this deadly urge. They can go out and change everything because you've magically erased their addiction. This is a good deed, if Superman could do it he could. I grant, not every character is going to be out there blasting the fallen world's problems away, but any mage who has a loved one would probably try it. Just like they might try to cure addicts of heroin, or Vitae. These two acts, healing the sick and wounded to the point of changing their nature, and lopping off legs. They'll take you to the same place.

                          Then you don't even scroll down because it's in the next paragraph and you see that Low Wisdom is in a special place. Medium is where most PCs would end up providing they're playing the game as portrayed and aren't being goaded too much. At Wisdom 1-3, 'A mage at this precipice could be lost to his magic at any time. Only the darkest, most selfishly destructive acts risk degeneration at this point.' The specific acts? Killing someone in a fit of rage (but what if they're a monster?), destroying an Awakened soul (again, monster), allowing a Supernal being to be consumed by the Fallen World (supernal entities aren't exactly nice, though I think this is more oriented towards ones you've summoned) , or dealing with the Abyss (Theumiel has a good intention).
                          Last edited by nofather; 01-01-2018, 06:05 AM.

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                          • Reprogramming a serial killer to be a functional member of society would be one. Healing a long-term disability. As Satchel mentioned, binding a Spirit or some other entity to seal it away. All of these are under Medium.

                            For Low, the only thing that immediately jumps to mind is dealing with the Abyss so you can accomplish something 'good' but 'impossible'. The Abyss is the realm of impossibility, not evil, so there are certainly things there that could help you accomplish a great good while simultaneously eating away at Fallen reality. Nofather's example of killing a monster in a fit of rage is another good example, same with destroying an Awakened Soul (this is actually an official punishment for the worst of the worst in some Consiliums.

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                            • Originally posted by nofather View Post
                              But it also says 'altering its nature long-term.' So finding Matt Murdock, the young child from the news who was publicly blinded by a toxic waste spill, and healing his eyes, would be an Act of Hubris. For some reason I want to trot out the depressives, and alcoholics and other people with addiction. You go over there to them, find the addicts, maybe hit them at a methadone clinic or something, but you cast a spell, and bam, their Addiction Condition is gone. You tie it off, give it an indefinite duration, and these people are free to live their lives without this deadly urge. They can go out and change everything because you've magically erased their addiction. This is a good deed, if Superman could do it he could. I grant, not every character is going to be out there blasting the fallen world's problems away, but any mage who has a loved one would probably try it. Just like they might try to cure addicts of heroin, or Vitae. These two acts, healing the sick and wounded to the point of changing their nature, and lopping off legs. They'll take you to the same place.
                              Now this is the sort of thing I'm looking for. Killing things in a rage and destroying souls is something that's going to at best fall into the necessary evil category imo, but curing addictions, restoring sight/limbs and what not, that's what I'm trying to find more of. Initially I'd lumped letting a Supernal Entity be consumed by the Fallen World as being something deliberately immoral or at best recklessly negligent, though you do bring up a fine point that they aren't necessarily going to be nice, or doing good things. I'm not sure whether I'd still consider it a necessary evil at that point or not but it at least makes me consider other possibilities so I'll run with it. Alas, I don't know who/what Theumiel is to make any judgments based on whether dealing with him would count in this situation.

                              Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                              Reprogramming a serial killer to be a functional member of society would be one. Healing a long-term disability. As Satchel mentioned, binding a Spirit or some other entity to seal it away. All of these are under Medium.

                              For Low, the only thing that immediately jumps to mind is dealing with the Abyss so you can accomplish something 'good' but 'impossible'. The Abyss is the realm of impossibility, not evil, so there are certainly things there that could help you accomplish a great good while simultaneously eating away at Fallen reality. Nofather's example of killing a monster in a fit of rage is another good example, same with destroying an Awakened Soul (this is actually an official punishment for the worst of the worst in some Consiliums.
                              Reprogramming, again, even when doing it for the greater good, is still pretty morally dubious. You're stripping them of their free will and permanently changing them into essentially a different person. That said, it does now make me consider how Reprogramming a serial killer who wants to change for the better might still be an act of hubris. Is it still an act of hubris if you have their full informed consent?

                              Also, does anyone else not find it strange that destroying a persons soul is the punishment that mage society falls back on as a final punishment? It seems wholly unnecessary except in extremely specific cases in which it might matter. I mean I remember reading that that's what they do but I've yet to figure out a reason why.

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                              • Originally posted by Ashenrogue View Post
                                That said, it does now make me consider how Reprogramming a serial killer who wants to change for the better might still be an act of hubris. Is it still an act of hubris if you have their full informed consent?
                                I would say so - you're still altering their nature long-term. It's healing of the mind, compared to healing someone's body by regenerating eyes that have been defective since birth. In both cases, you're changing something fundamental about the person with magic, and even if they want you to, the AoH as-written doesn't make any allowances for consent.

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