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  • OsuNeko
    replied
    Thank you!
    But for what bloody means you need summon some unknown fucking shit abyssal supernal entities through ritual when you can summone suitable entities through common means with more chances on successes and lesser chances on paradox?
    Last edited by OsuNeko; Yesterday, 09:19 AM.

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  • Taldorblackfire
    replied
    Originally posted by OsuNeko View Post
    Link very please!
    Well, I am unaware if there is an online resource containing this data. I know it is on page 94 of the Mage 2E Core Rulebook near the bottom right corner of the page is where it starts.

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  • OsuNeko
    replied
    Link very please!

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  • Taldorblackfire
    replied
    Originally posted by OsuNeko View Post
    (@_@) I am nearly lost... What's the bloody difference (in terms of mechanism)? Specters and ghosts (kerberois as well) can be summoned on third dot of Death. Goetia - on third dot of Mind... Abyssal creature can be summoned on five successes on Paradox Roll (what can be made delibiraitly).
    OsuNeko, well, the big difference is summoning those entities are spells with Reach Options and have spell casting rules. Summoning Supernal Beings is not really a spell, but rather a ritual using extended actions.

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  • OsuNeko
    replied
    Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
    The conversation is about summoning Supernal entities, not about spirits. Totally different things.
    (@_@) I am nearly lost... What's the bloody difference (in terms of mechanism)? Specters and ghosts (kerberois as well) can be summoned on third dot of Death. Goetia - on third dot of Mind... Abyssal creature can be summoned on five successes on Paradox Roll (what can be made delibiraitly).

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  • Taldorblackfire
    replied
    Here is your chance of summoning Utnapishtim without any aid from a friendly mage to boost your die rolls: ~60% in 7 turns
    If Gil was a Master without 8-again: ~88% in 7 turns.
    Last edited by Taldorblackfire; Yesterday, 07:18 AM. Reason: Read your post wrong and I apologize, I did not see you had already account for no intrusion.

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  • RBAWintrow
    replied
    Let's make a Mage that wants to summon a very powerfull Specter.

    The target is a Specter of Stygia called "Utnapishtim", a Master of Death and Mind.
    A Supernal Entity can cast spells up to its Rank.

    Relevant stats:
    Gil (Gilgamesh)
    Path Moros
    Gnosis 5, Death 3, Mind 3, Matter 1
    Mana 15/5 (total/turn)
    Will 10
    Int 5, Resolve 5, Comp 5
    Occult 5


    Preparations:

    He'll use Mind 2 "Augment Mind" to boost his Intelligence, Resolve and Composure to 5 for a week.

    He is using a Demesne from a Cabal member or his Order, he has spent some time preparing it for this summoning so he can improve his chances.

    Gil has no helpers because this is complicated enough as it is.


    Calling up Utnapishtim requires that Gil knows how. Fortunatly another summoner told him all about this powerful Specter.
    Gil is a Moros and a Disciple in all paths Utnapishtim has, a requirement for summoning an Entity of Stygia.

    Summoning a Supernal entity is an extended action. Each roll takes an hour.
    Starting the ritual costs 2 Mana because Gil has specified that this summon must have Mind as a second Arcanum.

    Gil needs a base of 10 successes to bring the entity across the Abyss and into the Fallen World.
    As this is a Rank 5 Entity, we add five successes per Rank of the entity past 1.
    The needed total is now 30!

    He wants the Entity to talk to him regarding what tasks it wants in exchange for helping Gil, and on later summonings Gil may ask Utnapishtim to cast a spell for him.
    Supernal Entities having infinite Reach can be quite useful. We add 1 needed successes so Utnapishtim can stick around for a half-hour without taking damage.
    31 successes needed...

    Gil does not assign any successes to reduce the chance of an Abyssal Intrusion.

    We subtract a whole 3 needed successes because Gil is in a Demesne oriented to the Realm Stygia.
    28 successes needed.

    Gil has his summoning circle in a specially prepared room, themed after Stygia. Wallpaper with ghosts on them, paper skeletons, scented candles (lavender), even a plastic skull he can wave around and brood cryptically over while performing his ritual.
    This enviroment lets us roll Intelligence + Occult. Every two successes on this roll removes one success from the target number of the summoning spell. His (boosted) intelligence is 5, his Skill in Occult is 5.
    So 10 dice.
    He spends 1 Willpower point on the roll for +3 dice.
    Lets say he gets 4 successes (1 success per 3 dice). We subtract half, so 2 from the summoning total.

    26 successes needed.


    The Summoning:

    To get the needed successes for the summon, we need to roll some dice.
    The number of rolls we can make is fixed to our Gnosis (5) + Arcana (3). So 8. This is how it's written in the segment on Extended Actions (page 214).
    Our dicepool is also Gnosis + Arcana, so 8.

    Gil spends 8 of his remaining 9 Willpower on these rolls for +3 dice per roll.

    8 rolls of 11 dice.
    We are likely to get around 32 successes after 8 hours of chanting, dancing and brooding ominously.


    The Abyss:

    We start risking Abyssal intrusion (page 95) after 10 rolls (Resolve + Composure + any successes allocated to avoid Abyssal intrusion).

    On every subsequent roll, the Storyteller rolls the character’s unmodified Gnosis (5). If the Storyteller accrues a number of successes equal to the mage’s Gnosis + the primary Arcanum in the summoning (8), then the Abyss breaks into the Fallen World.

    Gil gets 8 summoning rolls. He's at no risk. He gets 0 "Intrusion" rolls of 5 dice. On 8 successes he gets an Intruder.

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  • Taldorblackfire
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Those conditions include rolling four successes on an Attribute + Skill roll.

    That's something that has roughly sixty percent odds of happening on a roll of ten dice with 8-Again.

    It therefore should probably not be taken for granted in these simulations.
    I did not include die tricks for this scenario because not every Path has access to one. Does not change the argument about Abyssal Intrusion though. You just don't have enough dice to roll to make it happen, ever. If you are referencing Abyssal Intrusion it doesn't get 8-again ever.
    Last edited by Taldorblackfire; Yesterday, 07:59 AM.

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  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Originally posted by OsuNeko View Post
    Either i fuck in my eyes or i don't understand, why summoning of more ranked spirit should be more paradoxical? As far as I understand, this imposes a larger penalty (especially if there is not a single sympathetic link with the spirit). But this does not require additional reaches.

    As i read when you cast as extended action, you do not roll as many times as you have a basic dicepool, but simply add +5 at maximum (+1 per "round", "Casting Time" p. 114).

    ....... Or it's all about first edition?
    Summoning entities less paradoxical in 2ed?
    The conversation is about summoning Supernal entities, not about spirits. Totally different things.

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  • OsuNeko
    replied
    Either i fuck in my eyes or i don't understand, why summoning of more ranked spirit should be more paradoxical? As far as I understand, this imposes a larger penalty (especially if there is not a single sympathetic link with the spirit). But this does not require additional reaches.
    "Systems: Summoning a Supernal entity is an extended action,
    and is subject to the same rules as other such actions (see p. 214)."

    "Make a note of your
    Attribute + Skill + Specialty (if any); that’s the maximum number
    of times you can roll before the action fails."

    Most books just says to use the base dice pool as the limit, which would be Gnosis+Arcanum in this case.
    As i read when you cast as extended action, you do not roll as many times as you have a basic dicepool, but simply add +5 at maximum (+1 per "round", "Casting Time" p. 114).

    ....... Or it's all about first edition?
    Summoning entities less paradoxical in 2ed?
    Last edited by OsuNeko; Yesterday, 02:05 AM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Taldorblackfire View Post
    we shall assume the same conditions mentioned in the previous instances.
    Those conditions include rolling four successes on an Attribute + Skill roll.

    That's something that has roughly sixty percent odds of happening on a roll of ten dice with 8-Again.

    It therefore should probably not be taken for granted in these simulations.

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  • Taldorblackfire
    replied
    So, based on 10 million simulations, and a cabal of 6 very similar mages in Gnosis & Arcana Rating all with the same Path. All of these mages are going all out spending willpower and we shall assume the same conditions mentioned in the previous instances. They will have the following chance to summon a supernal being of the particular rank as indicated below:
    Rank 1: ~93% within 1 turn (seen variations of up to +2%)
    Rank 2: 89% within 1 turn
    Rank 3: ~78% within 2 turns (seen variations of up to +2%)
    Rank 4: ~69% within 3 turns (seen variations of up to -1%)
    Rank 5: ~49% within 3 turns (seen variations of up to -2%)

    This assumes the Teamwork where each success from a Mage adds 1 die to the lead Mage's die pool.

    0% Abyssal Intrusion for all of these.

    This is my problem with Abyssal Intrusion if Summoning works like other Teamwork and Extended Actions, it is 0% always. The only way you could have any chance of this happening is you literally have 1 Resolve & 1 Composure. Even then it is highly highly unlikely that you will ever invite the abyss into your summoning. This makes me think that something is wrong here and they intended to add the clause "You can spend as many rounds possible summoning and unlike other Extended Actions, Summoning works on the interval of the lead Mage's gnosis." This would make sense and actually have some bearing on some sort of consequences.

    I personally would use 1E's Summoning Rules found in Summoners. That makes more sense because there is a risk of Abyssal Intrusion, you can summon any Rank Entity assuming you are awake when you succeed, and it can be solo'd but is much easier with a group.
    Last edited by Taldorblackfire; 03-22-2019, 10:53 PM.

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  • Taldorblackfire
    replied
    Hmm... I guess I misunderstood Abyssal Intrusions assuming you had no limit. Then they really want this to be a group event, but even then to summon a Rank 3-5 supernal being requires a considerable number of mages, perhaps a consilium's worth. I thought summoning was meant to be a solo act based on the 1E Summoners.

    Edit: I checked, in 1E Summoners you had no limit. So, that added to my confusion. You can safely summon 1-2 Rank beings no problem, but I would say a Rank 5 would require at least a cabal worth of similar Mages. Really is odd to me they made such a change when summoning was meant to be a personal thing. *shrugs*
    Last edited by Taldorblackfire; 03-22-2019, 08:55 PM.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Taldorblackfire View Post
    You have no limit on the rolls you can make
    "Systems: Summoning a Supernal entity is an extended action,
    and is subject to the same rules as other such actions (see p. 214)."

    "Make a note of your
    Attribute + Skill + Specialty (if any); that’s the maximum number
    of times you can roll before the action fails."

    Most books just says to use the base dice pool as the limit, which would be Gnosis+Arcanum in this case.

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  • Taldorblackfire
    replied
    Originally posted by RBAWintrow View Post
    Ah, but how likely is it that a Gnosis 1 mage will succeed on the summoning? Even though the chance of an abyssal intrusion is 0%, you still need to get enough successes to actually summon something.

    Gnosis 1, Arcana 3 gives you 4 rolls of 4 dice.
    Summoning a Rank 1 Supernal Entity takes 10 successes.
    A Rank 5 takes 10+(5x4)=30.
    Your only options to reduce this a bit are -3 for a Demesne and half the successes of rolling Intelligence+Occult.

    To really have a chance I think you need Gnosis + Arcana to come to 9 or 10 at least.
    So, as long as you don't risk Abyssal Intrusion you succeed. So, subtract the abyssal intrusion from 100% and that is your chance of summoning a Supernal Being of the specified rank successfully. You have no limit on the rolls you can make, you just have a Safe Limit, which is equal to Resolve + Composure + successes allocated for Abyssal Intrusion Protection. Your main goal is to remove as much required successes as possible and increasing your die pool as much as you can.

    Based on a Starting Mage with Gnosis 1, Arcana 3, Resolve 3, Composure 2, No Paradox for the week, a Demesne assigned to the path, no duration bonus, 4 successes on their occult roll, no other mage involved, no sleepers, and spending all willpower will summon a Rank 1 Supernal Being in 2 turns with 0% abyssal intrusion chance.
    The same mage with the same parameters would summon a Rank 2 Supernal Being in 4 turns with a 1% abyssal intrusion chance (basically meaning 1% of the time required more than the 5 Safe Turns) This means 99% chance of success
    The same mage with the same parameters would summon a Rank 3 Supernal Being in 6 turns with a 5% abyssal intrusion chance. 95% chance of success
    The same mage with the same parameters would summon a Rank 4 Supernal Being in 8 turns with a 13% abyssal intrusion chance. 87% chance of success
    The same mage with the same parameters would summon a Rank 5 Supernal Being in 11 turns with a 25% abyssal intrusion chance. 75% chance of success
    Last edited by Taldorblackfire; 03-22-2019, 08:11 PM. Reason: Spelling error.

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