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  • If a Lancea et Sanctum Vampire with Sorcerous Eunuch had a spell cast on them by a Mage, would they penalize the casting dice pool by their Resolve, or does a Mage's power not count as 'Magical' ?

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    • So the text says "sorcery" and then later references "theban sorcery, cruac and other blood sorceries". So one could argue it only applies vs blood magic/sorcery.

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      • Originally posted by Raktus View Post
        If a Lancea et Sanctum Vampire with Sorcerous Eunuch had a spell cast on them by a Mage, would they penalize the casting dice pool by their Resolve, or does a Mage's power not count as 'Magical' ?
        That's a trickier question, and would probably require ST adjudication.
        From what I remember of dev commentary for Mage, the system is built on the assumption that nobody else's mystic powers will impose a negative penalty on your spellcasting roll, which is you constructing the Imago in your head, and then attempting to translate that into reality. It's a yes/no determination, which can get another boost if it's well made (Exceptional Success).

        Where resistance does come into play, it takes the form of Withstand, or if there's an opposing and incompatible power, a Clash of Wills. Which is why unlike most other splats, Mage spells don't give a hoot about other character's power stats.

        If I was feeling particuarly generous, I might say that Sorcerous Eunuch is sufficiently anti-Magic to take the role of a power that grants a Clash of Wills, and given it's persistent in effect, granting it the dice pool bonus in that clash for being a persistent power.

        Beyond that though, unless you're playing a Vampire game and want to offer some power to counteract a NPC Mage, I'd say the power likely wouldn't work.

        *EDIT* of course, I haven't read the merit in a while, and it might just work on Vampire Magic, in which case, no dice.

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        • Originally posted by totalgit View Post
          So the text says "sorcery" and then later references "theban sorcery, cruac and other blood sorceries". So one could argue it only applies vs blood magic/sorcery.

          I'm not sure that's a fair reading of the implications of that reference, which just refers to sorceries the vampire can never learn (meaning, sorceries the vampire could previously learn).

          I'd let it interact in some way with Awakened magic for fun. That would mean probably an increased withstand (either a flat number, or make withstand higher of Resolve/Withstand, or something like that) or Clash of Wills. By my reading, it should work on Awakened magic RAW, though, just from a narrative standpoint, it seems unlikely that the methods described would interact with Awakened magic in any real way. Still, blood magic works in mysterious ways. I think it's a fun tool to add to throw Mages for a loop, so I'd use it, but sparingly for vampire NPCs.

          In a vampire game with a few mage NPCs I also don't think it's really a problem to have it work as written.
          Last edited by Amravanti; 05-14-2018, 12:39 PM.

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          • by RAW it sounds like it wouldn't have an effect, but I'd probably call for a Clash of Wills or something just because i don't like the idea of various splats bypassing each others' powers because there's no explicit attention paid to it in the write-up. For example, it sounds unfair that a demon fresh off the Fall could just roll up to a centuries-old master of Dominate and use The Word on him, and he'd have no more defense against it than a particularly stubborn mall cop would.

            Unless that's the point, of course. I might do that if I wanted to introduce Demons as something so weird and alien to the ordinary night crawlers of the world that their powers don't even work on the same axes and can't be defended against by mere blood magic. Which is something you may want to do with Awakened magic, but it depends on what sort of story you're telling.

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            • Originally posted by Terrorforge View Post
              by RAW it sounds like it wouldn't have an effect, but I'd probably call for a Clash of Wills or something just because i don't like the idea of various splats bypassing each others' powers because there's no explicit attention paid to it in the write-up. For example, it sounds unfair that a demon fresh off the Fall could just roll up to a centuries-old master of Dominate and use The Word on him, and he'd have no more defense against it than a particularly stubborn mall cop would.
              Why would a vampire with Dominate get to Clash against The Word? Dominate doesn't provide any defence against similar effects; vampiric, demonic, or otherwise.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                Why would a vampire with Dominate get to Clash against The Word? Dominate doesn't provide any defence against similar effects; vampiric, demonic, or otherwise.
                Because even when we're talking in-splat power measuring contests, it's always struck me as weird that Mindbender the Dominating Methuselah doesn't have any more resistance to Vinny Ventrue's attempts to go digging around in his skull than his rent-a-cop ghoul.

                I've learned this is not so much a thing in 2e Dominate specifically since there's a Blood Potency component to the requisite use of Mesmerize, but e.g. Demon is full of powers (like The Word) that supernaturals (including other demons and many angels, excepting those higher-ranked ones with silly Resistance scores) are effectively defenseless against.

                From a purely mechanical standpoint, you could argue that since if a vampire tried to Dominate a target a demon had used The Word on or vice versa it would reasonably trigger a Clash of Wills, a vampire might be allowed to "Dominate" herself and trigger a Clash. Or at least a demon might be able to use The Word on herself if you want to be stickler about eye contact and such.
                Last edited by Terrorforge; 05-14-2018, 11:56 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Amravanti View Post


                  I'm not sure that's a fair reading of the implications of that reference, which just refers to sorceries the vampire can never learn (meaning, sorceries the vampire could previously learn).

                  I think depending on the game, I'd let it interact in some way with Awakened magic for fun. That would mean probably an increased withstand (either a flat number, or make withstand higher of Resolve/Withstand) or Clash of Wills. Truthfully though, just from a narrative standpoint, it seems unlikely that the methods described would interact with Awakened magic in any real way. But then, blood magic works in mysterious ways. I still think it's a fun tool to add to throw Mages for a loop, so I'd use it sparingly.

                  In a vampire game with a few mage NPCs I also don't think it's really a problem to have it work as written.
                  So i mainly meant that when it stated Sorcery it later sort of defined what it meant by sorcery (ie not supernal magic). Crossovers are always going to cause some friction as the developers dont always have access to other systems or even consider (they dont need to) other splats. Personally if you are going to rule it works on supernal magic reducing the dicepool is far to good esp since mages have pretty small dicepools already. Instead i would allow it to Clash vs supernal magic and work as written vs blood sorcery. (Tbh it probably should have just been a clash vs blood sorcery too)

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                  • Then your problem seems to be with resisted rolls rather than balance between major templates. Vinny the Ventrue is just as susceptible to Noel the Nosferatu's use of Mortal Terror (Nightmare 5).
                    The reason The Word doesn't use Supernatural Tolerance is because one of the uses counts the number of successes, and the devs have decided that such rolls are resisted rather than contested.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by HerbertIsBestBert View Post
                      That's a trickier question, and would probably require ST adjudication.
                      From what I remember of dev commentary for Mage, the system is built on the assumption that nobody else's mystic powers will impose a negative penalty on your spellcasting roll, which is you constructing the Imago in your head, and then attempting to translate that into reality. It's a yes/no determination, which can get another boost if it's well made (Exceptional Success).

                      Where resistance does come into play, it takes the form of Withstand, or if there's an opposing and incompatible power, a Clash of Wills. Which is why unlike most other splats, Mage spells don't give a hoot about other character's power stats.

                      If I was feeling particuarly generous, I might say that Sorcerous Eunuch is sufficiently anti-Magic to take the role of a power that grants a Clash of Wills, and given it's persistent in effect, granting it the dice pool bonus in that clash for being a persistent power.

                      Beyond that though, unless you're playing a Vampire game and want to offer some power to counteract a NPC Mage, I'd say the power likely wouldn't work.

                      *EDIT* of course, I haven't read the merit in a while, and it might just work on Vampire Magic, in which case, no dice.
                      If Sorcerous Eunuch applies to Awakened magic (which I personally think it should since the mention of blood sorcery concerns another part of the power) I'd take a page from Dave Brookshaw who posted earlier in this thread about a similar situation concerning werewolves and how they penalise supernatural effects that would mind control them while in Kuruth:

                      Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                      If you insist on using a penalty as a Withstand level - and in most cases you shouldn't, so this is a judgement call, halve the dice penalty rounding up. A withstand level effectively eats a raise in a spell's Potency, which is -2 dice.

                      *Doubling* a penalty is ridiculous.
                      Either straight up penalise the roll by the vampire's Resolve, or add half of it as a Withstand rating. If spending WP for the second effect, just remove successes from the casting roll. Withstand and resisted rolls are analogous in Mage so you could just choose your preference, but there's nothing similar to removing successes so I'd just keep it exactly that way.


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                      • It typically takes more gusto to affect spellcasting rules in general right? Like being drunk might affect it, but for the most part unless something specifically affects spellcasting rolls it doesn't? Or is it arguable that a creature could say, give you -10 to all rolls and that's going to include spellcasting. Likewise with anything that affects any supernatural effects/rolls, which makes a bit more sense. Abjuration (the discipline) for example would remove every spell within a radius, but not attainments, but other sources that simply say penalize all actions by X shouldn't apply to spellcasting imo.

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                        • I feel like Supernal Magic is rather blatantly meant to be something that Sorcerous Eunuch can affect. There's a lot of 'do not suffer a witch' vibes in some of the Lance stuff. As it is, I'd say that the process they undergo could certainly make it more difficult to form an Imago against them (per the rules for when a spell is resisted/contested), akin to a sort of passive countermagic; the Eunuch just sort of inherently disrupts the formation of it by their existence, or perhaps their antimagical nature is such that the Imago reflecting them becomes more complex or hard to focus on.




                          My CofD Homebrew

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                          • Simple enough question: Which Arcana are required for the now-classic "fireball" spell?

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                            • Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
                              Simple enough question: Which Arcana are required for the now-classic "fireball" spell?
                              It depends on how you want to do it, but the most straightforward would be Forces.

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                              • I should have asked "Which Arcana and at what level?"

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