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  • Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
    This might be a question better suited to Demon, but...
    How would you handle the interaction a Demon using Cover to Spoof a Mage's 'Pierce Deception'?

    Clash of Wills as normal for PD, or should the Spoofing win outright?
    Spoofing does exactly what spoofing says it does. A successful roll will make the demon register as their Cover rather than as a demon. This explicitly includes supernatural powers of revelation, and there is no reason for Pierce Deception to be an exception.


    Bloodline: The Stygians
    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
      This might be a question better suited to Demon, but...
      How would you handle the interaction a Demon using Cover to Spoof a Mage's 'Pierce Deception'?

      Clash of Wills as normal for PD, or should the Spoofing win outright?
      I agree with Satchel, the wording on Spoof indicates that it supersedes the Clash of Wills roll. If the Spoof roll failed and the Demon had an additional supernatural ability masking it, then there would be a Clash of Wills.

      What's also important to note is that Spoof would only stop the Mage from knowing that the Demon wasn't a normal Mortal, Spoof would have no effect on Pierce Deception's ability to see through mundane lies. This is stopped by Liar's Tongue.
      Last edited by proindrakenzol; 07-04-2018, 08:19 PM.


      Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology; Priests of the Watchful Eternity - a 2e Silver Ladder Moros Legacy (Life/Death) of Mages that enhance Mortals to fight strange entities

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      • Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
        What's also important to note is that Spoof would only stop the Mage from knowing that the Demon wasn't a normal Mortal, Spoof would have no effect on Pierce Deception's ability to see through mundane lies.
        I presume Liar's Tongue would cover this?

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        • Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
          I presume Liar's Tongue would cover this?
          Yes, I had forgotten about that ability.


          Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology; Priests of the Watchful Eternity - a 2e Silver Ladder Moros Legacy (Life/Death) of Mages that enhance Mortals to fight strange entities

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          • When putting a spell together, do you know how much Withstand the target has, or do you have to guess and hope your chosen Potency is good enough to affect them?


            My homebrew: Abyssals, Infernals, Dragon Kings, martial arts.

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            • Originally posted by Lanaya View Post
              When putting a spell together, do you know how much Withstand the target has, or do you have to guess and hope your chosen Potency is good enough to affect them?
              I believe it was the latter.


              MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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              • Originally posted by Lanaya View Post
                When putting a spell together, do you know how much Withstand the target has, or do you have to guess and hope your chosen Potency is good enough to affect them?
                It’s the latter as was said, however if you were smart you would have previously cast a Knowing spell to determine what the Withstand was before just guessing.

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                • Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                  It’s the latter as was said, however if you were smart you would have previously cast a Knowing spell to determine what the Withstand was before just guessing.
                  Doing so however, if recognized, might be equivalent to pointed a gun at someone (or at least showing it). Sure, the "quick draw" can go wrong, but scanning someone's Withstand beforehand can give away the surprise.


                  Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                  Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                  • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                    Doing so however, if recognized, might be equivalent to pointed a gun at someone (or at least showing it). Sure, the "quick draw" can go wrong, but scanning someone's Withstand beforehand can give away the surprise.
                    Hence why if you were smart you would have taken steps to avoid being detected and have a quick getaway set up in the event of being noticed.

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                    • Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                      Hence why if you were smart you would have taken steps to avoid being detected and have a quick getaway set up in the event of being noticed.
                      Are we talking about the hypothetical attacker or defender here?


                      Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                      Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                      • Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                        Are we talking about the hypothetical attacker or defender here?
                        Either works.

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                        • Originally posted by Thorbes View Post
                          In first ed Claimed was a major template and those couldn't stack. The fluff explanation was that while humans were like soft clay ready to be molded, major templates (Werewolf, Vampire, Mage) were like finished pottery out of the oven, they could not be shaped again, only broken.

                          EDIT : of course that's no longer the case as template stacking is not flat out prohibited and Claimed is a Condition anyway.
                          Woah woah I am way behind it seems! Other than archmages and even then I thought people were against it... since when was template stacking tolerated/allowed? Whats the sources on this?

                          Sorry for quoting an old post but this is very valuable to me

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                          • Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
                            Woah woah I am way behind it seems! Other than archmages and even then I thought people were against it... since when was template stacking tolerated/allowed? Whats the sources on this?
                            It's apparently not been as big a deal as people have made it out to be. Like, there's clearly people who have wanted to do it, and haven't let posters who didn't like Sam Haight rule how they were going to have fun. But it's like Thorbes said, it's just a matter of seeing Claimed being a Condition now. Wolf-Blooded, too, are handled with Tells in second edition, rather than their own template, and you keep the Tells if you turn into something else. It's not a big thing, we still do have templates and some of them can't be overlapped, Hurt Locker outright says not to let the 'micro templates' be used by supernatural characters.

                            Rose expanded on her outlook on templates as a developer, when some people were talking about the perceived importance of templates,
                            Originally posted by Rose Bailey View Post
                            To the extent that it's something we use internally, it was originally intended to clean up crossover, by not allowing mages to be ghouled. And there's definitely a general principle that a lot of supernatural powers can't be combined. But greater and lesser templates have never really been a major design principle. Mostly, it's all just templates (or, as we usually call them, character types), and most of them can't be combined.

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                            • Okay so stacking *is* prohibited then. Short of archmastery its not doable.

                              So mages cannot be ghouled? Thats a damper... unless they can still become obsessed with a vampire? I like my options open on how an Elder can achieve control over mages to keep interesting stories open.

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                              • Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
                                Okay so stacking *is* prohibited then. Short of archmastery its not doable.

                                So mages cannot be ghouled? Thats a damper... unless they can still become obsessed with a vampire? I like my options open on how an Elder can achieve control over mages to keep interesting stories open.
                                Every supernatural can be blood bonded, but not ghouled. Obviously some have workarounds like some mages and werewolves being able to cure it, or Demons being able to become someone who isn't blood bonded. Dhampir did get a second edition makeover (in Half-Damned) and they're less inherently antagonistic to vampires.
                                Last edited by nofather; 07-06-2018, 05:03 PM.

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