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  • So when we concluded that Supernals lack certain advantages, it was because they were omitted from lists of beings who say, have numina.

    With that, does this means our mage-book's coverage of spirits specifically can gorge on resonance means that other ephemeral entities *cannot* gorge themselves on resonance, like say, a goetia?

    If so...

    Originally posted by Therian View Post
    Another question, how do Goetia sustain themselves? It seem as though without having any Manifestations naturally they are limited to their Essence In hours to be about, but what does that mean to Mages that have summoned them?
    [QUOTE]

    From my reading of the rules, I kinda hate saying it but it looks like goetia cannot remain active in the physical world for long. The only manifestation they'll be able to get is Familiar, so that's about it I guess.

    Without the power to gorge on resonance like a spirit, the goetia is pretty much boned. Even hanging out at a resonant location apparently doesn't work. I used to think the resonant-tag alone stopped essence bleed but apparently you *need* fetter to stop the bleed. Oof.



    Originally posted by Prometheus View Post
    That would make sense, although I would still like to have some sort of an official ruling. I originally thought that you can't use Attainments at all, but if you *could* that would be potentially a huge deal for some Legacies.

    On a different note, the primary and secondary spell factors in Legacy Attainments should be possible to use not at full strength, correct? That's because the strength of Attainments is not fixed, but increases with your knowledge of the relevant Arcana. So you shouldn't have to get, say, 5 automatic succeses as a Master, but could instead opt to just get 3, or to use the Attainment at Potency 2 instead of 5 (or 2 instead of 3 if it's a secondary spell factor). Increased knowledge of the Arcana should not prevent you from using Attainments as when your Arcana rating was lower.
    I think it is but only because the 5th Attainment for the Eleventh Question has some mechanics that don't make sense to me without one additional reach to throw around, and since the legacy involves time, having time in a bottle would make sense. But we won't get an official ruling I don't think. Its been asked enough times that, I'm sure, if Dave wanted to comment on it, he probably would have, so we either have to hope clarification is coming in Signs or that most people have the general jist down that it isn't that important?

    What me and my small group of, sadly, non-related friends do is that an arcana attainment can be part of a legacy attainment but, as mentioned by @proindrakenzol if we assume we can do it at all, it makes sense that it should become mandetory and is no longer optional. This would mean that Time in a Bottle can be part of a legacy, but if it is, it is mandetory to have it, and you cannot use the legacy attainment without Time in a Bottle's effect and cost being applied to (good thing for mana break, another hint that attainments can be mixed).
    So I'd imagine the result is that, a legacy that uses time magic could have Time in a Bottle encoded into the 4th and 5th Legacy Attainments (but not the others), as these are the Attainments that specifically require (and guarantee) that you'll even HAVE Time in a Bottle. In exchange, the effect of Time in a Bottle *will* occur when using these legacy attainments.

    Anyway I think this is how Eleventh Question's Penultimate Answer gets its mileage. It confused me a lot. "Why does the Optional Matter effect get instant use and other stuff too? Oh wait, its cuz its not instant. But how long does the object last for, and how come they get sensory range?"
    Combining sensible arcana attainments seems like a good work-around without handwaving it. At least to me.

    I love legacies.

    As for the strength of attainments, they're "fixed", at least, they're put on variables that, while your arcana change, how they'll affect the attainment does not change. This is a really lame way to describe it but, the primary factor *will* match your Arcana (unless you waste a pre-determined reach on switching factors but why would the creator do this... ...), and the secondary (or scale) will add up to *baaasically* 1/2 your arcana. Not really but, close enough.
    So I don't think you can opt in for decreasing the primary factor at will, and I do not think you can spread the values around for a better haul. Although since there's only one 2E official updated legacy I guess there's little to stop us from homeruling at our tables, after all, if people are having fun, what's the problem...?
    I hope this is helping but legacies really suffered to that word-count limit.
    So yeah, it would appear that a legacy creator can't cut-and-paste some of the primary spellfactor's power and put it onto, say, scale and let duration do the "penalty to lowest prerequisite arcanum" thingy. And gosh have I wanted to do juuust thaat same thing.

    Lore wise it also would be reasonable to assume that a legacy's user can't opt-in for decreasing the attainment's power when used, as it has become a part of your soul and being to use the power this way, and very completely. It's not quite like a muscle that was trained and can be controlled, like with the mind and imagination and arcana. Kind of like how mage armor cannot be decreased, or how pattern restoration cannot be modulated. It would be cool if we could but, compared to other attainments. Legacy attainments seem very strict about the "push button receive effect" feel.

    Welp I hope I didn't make too much of a fool out of myself >.<

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    • From my reading of the rules, I kinda hate saying it but it looks like goetia cannot remain active in the physical world for long. The only manifestation they'll be able to get is Familiar, so that's about it I guess.

      Without the power to gorge on resonance like a spirit, the goetia is pretty much boned. Even hanging out at a resonant location apparently doesn't work. I used to think the resonant-tag alone stopped essence bleed but apparently you *need* fetter to stop the bleed. Oof.



      But you can use a Mind 4 spell similar to revenant to give goetia a long lasting manifestation
      Last edited by Neos01; 05-30-2019, 03:32 AM.

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      • Originally posted by Neos01 View Post

        But you can use a Mind 4 spell similar to revenant to give goetia a long lasting manifestation
        Oh, but, the problem is that the Prometheus wanted to know how a goetia can get by without a mage's help I thought... I didn't know we were letting magic factor in.

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        • Originally posted by Therian View Post
          Another question, how do Goetia sustain themselves? It seem as though without having any Manifestations naturally they are limited to their Essence In hours to be about, but what does that mean to Mages that have summoned them?
          To summarise what others have said:

          Goetia can't naturally remain in the material. They can gain Essence from Resonant Conditions, but loses it faster due to Essence bleed than they can gain it.
          Goetia simply aren't equipped to be in the material, and have no natural ways of exiting the Astral anyway. There needs to be shenanigans going on for them to reach the material, and where there's such shenanigans you can always throw on some more shenanigans like Manifestations à la the LA setting where Temenotic Goetia of famous people possess those people despite not having any natural abilities to do so.

          Mages who summon Goetia needs to grant them Manifestations to keep Essence bleed at bay. Either Mind 4 for Familiar (if the Goetia consents to it) or conjunctional Death or Spirit 4 for other Manifestation Conditions like Fettered, Possessed, or Claimed. Alternatively, the Mage could just procure enough Essence through other means and feed the Goetia to keep it from discorporating and returning back to the Astral. It might also be possible with a Shielding spell to shield a Goetia from Essence bleed, but they'd still require one Essence each day to keep going.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • A few questions about Dissonance.

            1. What happens if the same spell has been witnessed by Sleepers multiple times in a Scene, like for example a Shielding spell affording its protection in multiple instances during that Scene? Is there still only one roll? One roll per instance? One roll with a bonus?

            2. What if multiple spells were witnessed? Do you only roll once for all (possible since Dissonance uses Withstand which could be used to make one roll apply to multiple different Withstands)? Once for each spell?

            3. Since Dissonance is rolled at the end of a Scene, could the roll be prevented by murdering the witnessing Sleepers before the end of the Scene? Or could it at least be made easier by mind-breaking their Integrity before the end of the Scene?


            Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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            • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

              To summarise what others have said:

              Goetia can't naturally remain in the material. They can gain Essence from Resonant Conditions, but loses it faster due to Essence bleed than they can gain it.
              Goetia simply aren't equipped to be in the material, and have no natural ways of exiting the Astral anyway. There needs to be shenanigans going on for them to reach the material, and where there's such shenanigans you can always throw on some more shenanigans like Manifestations à la the LA setting where Temenotic Goetia of famous people possess those people despite not having any natural abilities to do so.

              Mages who summon Goetia needs to grant them Manifestations to keep Essence bleed at bay. Either Mind 4 for Familiar (if the Goetia consents to it) or conjunctional Death or Spirit 4 for other Manifestation Conditions like Fettered, Possessed, or Claimed. Alternatively, the Mage could just procure enough Essence through other means and feed the Goetia to keep it from discorporating and returning back to the Astral. It might also be possible with a Shielding spell to shield a Goetia from Essence bleed, but they'd still require one Essence each day to keep going.

              So how do we think this works with Grigori? Are they an exception to essence bleed? Doesn't seem like they have a home realm to go back to because they are just Resonant with their bodies. Actually while I'm on the subject what could you do with Influence: Watching? Looking through the table I couldn't think of anything.

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              • Originally posted by Therian View Post
                So how do we think this works with Grigori? Are they an exception to essence bleed? Doesn't seem like they have a home realm to go back to because they are just Resonant with their bodies. Actually while I'm on the subject what could you do with Influence: Watching? Looking through the table I couldn't think of anything.
                Since they aren't Goetia or Spirits, and are from this realm, they likely wouldn't have Essence Bleed. It's basically a form of astral projection, with costs handled by the Shroud of Observation, including any bleed if it is a thing. Some idigam do a similar thing when ripping souls out of humans (though the Grigori are said to be their pilots mind and soul).

                Influence would likely be Observation. Strengthen would allow you to bolster one's ability to observe, say, seeing 20+ miles away. Manipulate and Control would let you get around things like barriers, or through things like walls or safes, potentially even into seeing things that couldn't 'normally' be seen, like intent or thought, thats not getting into the possibility of altering the abilities of others (say, making your observations look past them even if you would normally see an entity in Twilight). Create or Mass Create would basically let you multiply your sources of observation, like dropping a ward in a MOBA game, used on others could create hallucinations or visions or outright lies, though the Grigori didn't seem like they were mean to get to those levels of power.
                Last edited by nofather; 05-30-2019, 03:47 PM.

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                • It makes a lot of sense symbolically speaking. It takes more than an idea/goetia for them to be realized. It also means there is mechanically more of an incentive for the use of Numina and Influences, tending towards giving more of a psychic phenomena vibe. I wonder if Veil of Moments could be used to prevent the Essence expenditure, in the same train of thought as preventing a person from becoming more tired.
                  Last edited by KaiserAfini; 05-31-2019, 12:21 PM.


                  New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.


                  The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists

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                  • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                    It makes a lot of sense symbolically speaking. It takes more than an idea/goetia for them to be realized. It also means there is mechanically more of an incentive for the use of Numina and Influences, tending towards giving more of a psychic phenomena vibe. I wonder if Veil of Moments could be used to prevent the Essence expenditure, in the same train of thought as preventing a person from becoming more tired.
                    makes enough sense that imma steal your idea

                    *yoink*

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
                      From my reading of the rules, I kinda hate saying it but it looks like goetia cannot remain active in the physical world for long. The only manifestation they'll be able to get is Familiar, so that's about it I guess.

                      Without the power to gorge on resonance like a spirit, the goetia is pretty much boned. Even hanging out at a resonant location apparently doesn't work. I used to think the resonant-tag alone stopped essence bleed but apparently you *need* fetter to stop the bleed. Oof.
                      Worth remembering that Mage's copy of the ephemeral being mechanics isn't completely flush with the instances in other games; the ability of ghosts to recover Essence from being remembered isn't listed, either, and the Beast Player's Guide's treatment on Dreamborn uses the systems for spirits as a baseline with their explicit exceptions listed, which both do not include "they can't harvest Resonance" and specifically say that they suffer Essence bleed if not in the presence of suitable resonance.

                      It's possible, in other words, that "Anchor specifies a range limit to its effects" is a thing that exists to make normal ghosts limited actors rather than to make Werewolf's nanutari and Demon's unembodied loyalists functionally toothless as antagonists for stories lasting more than a day.


                      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                      • It might also be possible that a mage could use a Perfecting of Mind to optimize the goetia into not losing Essence passively. Perhaps a shielding to protect them from the bleeding effect of Twilight on their Essence pool. Third option is a Weaving to change "can only absorb Essence passively from a Resonant area" to "can also actively gorge on Resonant essence up to [Potency] times a day".

                        So hopefully the mage would have the Gnosis to conjunctionally cast one of those when doing a goetic summon.


                        New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.


                        The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists

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                        • Originally posted by Therian View Post
                          Actually while I'm on the subject what could you do with Influence: Watching? Looking through the table I couldn't think of anything.
                          I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the servitors of the Greater Ministry of the Exarch of People Act Differently When They Know They're Being Watched can heighten the sense of being watched, brute-force their way through the sensory fog of Twilight to pick up more detail, redirect the attention of surveillance around themselves, and make use of the basic ephemeral being mechanics to always know where their bodies and their targets are within at least a mile of their ephemeral forms.

                          The important thing about "Grigori are treated as Rank 2 goetia" is that they're largely invisible to people who aren't a moderately specific subset of mages.

                          Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                          It might also be possible that a mage could use a Perfecting of Mind to optimize the goetia into not losing Essence passively. Perhaps a shielding to protect them from the bleeding effect of Twilight on their Essence pool. Third option is a Weaving to change "can only absorb Essence passively from a Resonant area" to "can also actively gorge on Resonant essence up to [Potency] times a day".
                          Shape Spirit being our only precedent to work from suggests that these are Patterning effects if they're doable at all.


                          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                          • If I inure an Unraveling direct damage spell can I kill a person with it and not suffer wisdom lose?

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                            • Yes, but you already lost Wisdom once to be able to do it and you still need to deal with the rapidly escalating Paradox.


                              New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.


                              The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists

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                              • Does the force 4 environmental immunity attainment
                                Protect the mage from the damage of an house on fire or a storm's lightning ?

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