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  • Wow, I almost feel bad for asking my previous question. ._.

    And yet, I have more~

    So I'm looking at the Practices and as they become more powerful, what they do seems to be more clear. It's the Initiate practices that have been the hardest to grasp. I think I've got Unveiling and Knowing figured out, but Compelling is particularly hard to grasp mostly because of the Space Arcanum.

    Groundeater. That's what's confusing me. "Compelling spells nudge a preferred but possible outcome into reality." Groundeater is literally pinching or contracting space in such a way that the subject moves in an alarming way. Shouldn't that fall under the purview of Ruling?

    In general, Space seems like a hard one to come up with Compelling spells for since space honestly for the most part just...is.

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    • Originally posted by RobinCoyote View Post
      Wow, I almost feel bad for asking my previous question. ._.

      And yet, I have more~

      So I'm looking at the Practices and as they become more powerful, what they do seems to be more clear. It's the Initiate practices that have been the hardest to grasp. I think I've got Unveiling and Knowing figured out, but Compelling is particularly hard to grasp mostly because of the Space Arcanum.

      Groundeater. That's what's confusing me. "Compelling spells nudge a preferred but possible outcome into reality." Groundeater is literally pinching or contracting space in such a way that the subject moves in an alarming way. Shouldn't that fall under the purview of Ruling?

      In general, Space seems like a hard one to come up with Compelling spells for since space honestly for the most part just...is.
      Have you ever been scared of something and it felt like you couldn't get away? Or so anxious the room felt bigger or smaller? Almost like a nightmare but you were awake? That spell posits that the phenomenon is real but Sleepers will rationalize it away. To me the spell is more about putting a little bit of that nightmarishness of chase-dreams and Pandemonium into full effect. Its super rare for space (in game) to twist so subtly from the resonance of anxious scared people, but what can happen will happen to the Compelling practice. Some of these things, I've found, are easier if you remember that the premise of the game says that us as players are baaaasically sleepers? So some of our objections are *because* we are sleepers.

      So compelling space to shrink... my initial reaction was "but thats not something that could happen on its own" and then I asked myself "but what if it could?"
      And then THATS a scary thought! We can apply this to quite a few Mage spell-questions, but, its not always satisfactory. Like, I can explain why the control fire spell works as it does and is Ruling, but it feels like it should still be perfecting. Ah well.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by RobinCoyote View Post
        Wow, I almost feel bad for asking my previous question. ._.

        And yet, I have more~

        So I'm looking at the Practices and as they become more powerful, what they do seems to be more clear. It's the Initiate practices that have been the hardest to grasp. I think I've got Unveiling and Knowing figured out, but Compelling is particularly hard to grasp mostly because of the Space Arcanum.

        Groundeater. That's what's confusing me. "Compelling spells nudge a preferred but possible outcome into reality." Groundeater is literally pinching or contracting space in such a way that the subject moves in an alarming way. Shouldn't that fall under the purview of Ruling?

        In general, Space seems like a hard one to come up with Compelling spells for since space honestly for the most part just...is.
        Remember that in mage space is a lie, based of perception of sympathetic distance.
        You feel more "close" to someone you love for example.
        In this case have you ever been outside of your house at night after you ve seen an horror movie?
        Space bends, scary figures seems bigger and closer, the road to the house door seem so far...

        Comment


        • Compelling is a bit undefined as to what can it do. In general I tend to assume that if it's something that can happen on it's own then it's compelling but the printed spells don't always follow that plus it doesn'twork for some of the more esoteric arcana. For instance space and time don't particulary do things on their own. So in those cases I go "Is the effect subtle enough to not be overtly supernatural" and "Do i want my PCs use that kind of effect and 1 dot"

          Personally I think compelling is mostly there to have characters be able to actually DO something at 1 dot, not just enhance their perceptions.

          Comment


          • So I have a question regarding the phrases "rote quality", "rote action quality", and "rote action". Are these all the same thing?

            My original assumption was that "rote quality" was talking about the spell type, and "rote action quality" was talking about a "rote action."

            But then in the middle of the text block for Rotes, the spell type, it says, "Casting a Rote from a Grimoire rather than from memory, or casting a Rote she designed herself, gives the mage’s spellcasting dice pool the rote quality."

            So obviously, unless I'm mistaken, they're using "rote quality" and "rote action quality" interchangeably to refer to "rote actions" right? Unless there is an actual rote quality I completely breezed over? I'm asking because there are 500-some instances of the word "rote" in the book, so ctrl+F is useless for this, and the index lists something like several dozen page numbers for the word "rote".
            Last edited by RobinCoyote; 07-08-2019, 11:00 AM.

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            • Originally posted by RobinCoyote View Post
              So I have a question regarding the phrases "rote quality", "rote action quality", and "rote action". Are these all the same thing?

              My original assumption was that "rote quality" was talking about the spell type, and "rote action quality" was talking about a "rote action."

              But then in the middle of the text block for Rotes, the spell type, it says, "Casting a Rote from a Grimoire rather than from memory, or casting a Rote she designed herself, gives the mage’s spellcasting dice pool the rote quality."

              So obviously, unless I'm mistaken, they're using "rote quality" and "rote action quality" interchangeably to refer to "rote actions" right? Unless there is an actual rote quality I completely breezed over? I'm asking because there are 500-some instances of the word "rote" in the book, so ctrl+F is useless for this, and the index lists something like several dozen page numbers for the word "rote".
              Rote quality = rote action quality = rote action. Reroll all failed dice once.

              The spell type is only termed "Rote". When casting a Rote from a Grimoire you gain the rote quality on your spell casting roll.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

              Comment


              • I know this has been asked before but its such a huge topic by this point and finding the precise answer among tangential questions is kinda hard.

                Sorry for asking. I know sometimes people say "yes" and sometimes "no" but, about using fate magic to power up other supernatural powers...

                Can you get rote quality and 8-again to stack simultaneously on a single spell? Yes I know this means rituals if yes.
                Can you apply rote8-again to other supernatural instant actions like buffing a werewolf Gift or a Numina, or to use in Clash of Wills?

                Can you get Miracle to work on Supernatural powers? I thought it was yes but, I am unclear if thats from the Hex-Bless section or not cuz I think Miracle omits that possibility? Also would that be something you can use on clashes of wills?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
                  I know this has been asked before but its such a huge topic by this point and finding the precise answer among tangential questions is kinda hard.

                  Sorry for asking. I know sometimes people say "yes" and sometimes "no" but, about using fate magic to power up other supernatural powers...

                  Can you get rote quality and 8-again to stack simultaneously on a single spell? Yes I know this means rituals if yes.
                  Can you apply rote8-again to other supernatural instant actions like buffing a werewolf Gift or a Numina, or to use in Clash of Wills?

                  Can you get Miracle to work on Supernatural powers? I thought it was yes but, I am unclear if thats from the Hex-Bless section or not cuz I think Miracle omits that possibility? Also would that be something you can use on clashes of wills?
                  I think that to get rote quality and 8-again to stack simultaneously on a single spell you need to use the rule of combined spells.
                  To affect supernatural powers with hex/boon and miracle i would suggest to add the arcana whose purview includes the power to target

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
                    Can you get rote quality and 8-again to stack simultaneously on a single spell? Yes I know this means rituals if yes.
                    Yes, applying two buffs that affect the same thing don't stack, but 8-again and rote quality are different so can stack.

                    I'm assuming you mean a single spell will have both 8-again and rote action quality, not that a single spell grants both effects to a different spell.


                    Can you apply rote8-again to other supernatural instant actions like buffing a werewolf Gift or a Numina, or to use in Clash of Wills?
                    8-again definitely for supernatural instant actions, rote action quality I would personally limit to ritual powers such as Theban Sorcery or Werewolf Rites.

                    I would be loath to allow dice tricks to apply to Clash of Wills.

                    Can you get Miracle to work on Supernatural powers? I thought it was yes but, I am unclear if thats from the Hex-Bless section or not cuz I think Miracle omits that possibility? Also would that be something you can use on clashes of wills?
                    It doesn't say it can't affect supernatural powers, and it's not a Boon or a Hex, so I'd say it's "fair game."

                    A Prime spell that provoked a Clash from Miracle would provoke a Clash if you tried to usean intercession against the resultant clash, so you'd get a weird stack of clashing to affect clashes. I, personally, would exempt Clash of Wills rolls from the effects because of how I view the mechanic, but I can't think of any rules reason why it wouldn't be allowed.
                    Last edited by proindrakenzol; 07-12-2019, 04:37 AM.


                    Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
                      Can you get rote quality and 8-again to stack simultaneously on a single spell? Yes I know this means rituals if yes.
                      Why ritual only? Are you thinking that you'd only get Rote action from casting from a Grimoire? You also get Rote action if you created that Rote in the first place, in which case it's still possible to cast it with a Reach for instant casting. There could possibly be other ways you could get Rote action, but none that I can recall right now. Theoretically speaking, the boon from a Supernal entity should easily be able to grant Rote action on a limited amount of spells.

                      8 Again can be granted by Exceptional Luck or As Above, So Below. They have to be cast first, though. Combining them, as suggested above, doesn't work because the effects of those spells only take place after you've rolled to see if you've successfully cast those spells.

                      As for supporting other supernatural powers, I believe it's suggested in the core book that you might grant extra dice. I'm not opposed to extending it to dice tricks, but I would be careful about how easy they can be granted.
                      I wholeheartedly agree that CoW dice pools should be completely off limits (mages can't even apply dice tricks to their own CoW pools, only bonus dice by playing into the CoW duration system and +1 from Advanced Potency).
                      Similarly, I like the idea of Rote action only being applicable on ritual actions. I'd come up with a Spirit+Prime Scribe Pack/Wolf Rite spell that grants Rote action on a single Pack or Wolf Rite if the rite leader uses the grimoire as a tool during the ritual. Probably also requiring Arcana that are relevant to the specific rite, such as Forces for a rite that manipulates the weather, or Space for a rite that establishes and enforces a boundary.
                      Last edited by Tessie; 07-12-2019, 10:04 AM.


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                      Comment


                      • The core book doesn't at all say that it's possible to boost other supernatural creatures' power activation dice pools. I was probably just misremembering the explicit rule that you can't raise or decrease supernatural traits, which does leave the possibility of boosting dice pools open but it's far from being suggested as I previously claimed.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                        Comment


                        • @Tessie:

                          Scarlet Witch is specifically asking about the limits of the Fate Arcanum.

                          Under Boons it says "{t}he boon may also affect spellcasting rolls and other powers at the cost of +2 Reach."

                          As for rote quality only applying to rituals read the Fate 3 spell Superlative Luck, the reach option to affect spellcasting is limited to ritual casting and doubles the interval.


                          Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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                          • I have a question about Create Sympathy (Space 5). Let's say I want to create a connection between two persons. The spell says "the mage creates a new sympathetic connection on the subject". So is it sufficient that only one of those persons is within sensory range? Or do I need to have at least 2 subjects for this spell to work?

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                            • As phrased it only seems to require a single subject, but that makes little sense, imo. I would rule it as requiring at least two subjects, creating one between both. Adding additional subjects would either create connections between all of them or between one of the and the others, the mage decides when casting the spell.
                              Not RAW, but what makes most sense to me.


                              Bloodline: The Stygians
                              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                              Comment


                              • Yeah, it's a spell that should, like Familiar, require two subjects imo. You don't actually have to have both subjects present since you can employ Sympathy to make your Sympathy, but you'll still be taking dice penalties to deal with Scale.

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