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  • orathaic
    replied
    In neither case would an AoE Dispel Magic/Supernal Dispellation only affect the overlapping parts. A spell either affects the subject or it doesn't.
    Interesting, that is exactly the opposite of what i would expect.

    If you wanted to 'dispel' an effect in this way, you would have to Ward targeting the subject not the spell (adding to their withstand) and thus create an AoE which targets the people in the area making the original effect cease.

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  • orathaic
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Spells are objects that occupy the physical space and time required for a spell with their factors to affect the targets or areas they affect. As Pocket Dimension is a Master-level Space spell that is not required to be anchored to a physical space, it can sidestep the vulnerability this entails, but accessing the Made space presents a window in which it can be accessed.
    That was the conclusion i came to.

    I think having an Iris - which is allowed, is it 1 reach per iris, either as part of the spell or you can create a portal as a seperate spell - gives you a downside, people who can see the Iris can see the spell which creates it and thus attempt to dispell it.

    If that is a seperate spell from the pocket dimension (ie not made with the reach option) then you don't lose the whole space just the connection. But it costs an extra spell control/willpower...

    For multiple-target spells you need to target all the targets to suppress the whole spell.
    I can't see anything in the rules which suggests this. Can you provide a page reference?

    My understanding is that, without fate, you have to either completely suppress the spell or not affect any it (AoE effects may differ).

    Bearing in mind the possible consequences of touching an area-effect spell, yes. The Scale of the dispellation still needs to encompass the whole of the spell's subjects.
    This would make area of effect spell very difficult to dispell. Withstand by potency (plus Wards) plus an additional scale factor. Interesting if correct as i was asking in my first question how to make a pocket dimension for a sanctum as impenetrable as possible.
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

    A non-AoE spell is a singular thing with no Size. To target it with a non-AoE spell of your own, you only need to perceive one subject of the spell, and you don't need any Scale increases to dispel the spell from all subjects.
    That was my understanding, i think the question is, can you touch the subject of the spell to cast at touch range (and i think you've answered it, with a yes. Even touch their clothes or with a weapon you are holding).

    This would also apply to veiling the spell, touch one target and veil the spell where ever it is visible...
    If you want to dispel it selectively from multiple subjects (by adding Fate 1), you need Scale enough to cover each subject you wish to dispel, and implicitly also cast the spell on those subjects (meaning you need to touch/perceive those subjects or cast remotely/sympathetically on them).
    This seems much clearer as it is what i would expect from the description of the Fate spell.

    For AoE spells, it's unclear.
    Thanks for that, unclear is fine so long as it is clear that nobody knows.
    Last edited by orathaic; 01-27-2022, 07:15 AM.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by orathaic View Post
    [...]
    A non-AoE spell is a singular thing with no Size. To target it with a non-AoE spell of your own, you only need to perceive one subject of the spell, and you don't need any Scale increases to dispel the spell from all subjects.
    If you want to dispel it selectively from multiple subjects (by adding Fate 1), you need Scale enough to cover each subject you wish to dispel, and implicitly also cast the spell on those subjects (meaning you need to touch/perceive those subjects or cast remotely/sympathetically on them).


    For AoE spells, it's unclear. We simply do not know if an AoE spell that partially overlaps a subject affects that subject.
    • Either it does, and then you don't need to increase Scale on your AoE spell to affect the entirety of the other spell spell.
    • Or it doesn't, and you need to cover the other spell with your own AoE.
    • In either case, a non-AoE Dispel Magic/Supernal Dispellation should still be able to affect an entire AoE spell. It depends on whether an AoE spell can be considered to have size that you need to account for with your Scale factor or not.
    • In neither case would an AoE Dispel Magic/Supernal Dispellation only affect the overlapping parts. A spell either affects the subject or it doesn't. The other spell is the subject. However, we know that you can cast the spell on each individual subject instead of on the spell itself if you use the Fate option. I would personally allow adding Fate 1 (or Space 1) to only suppress the spell from subjects in the overlapping area, with the rationale that the subjects of the first spell would be the subjects of your spell rather than the spell directly. But it's not the default behaviour of the published dispellation spells.
    Last edited by Tessie; 01-27-2022, 06:23 AM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Hyuse View Post
    Hi everyone! Can someone explain where in the books a full set of rules for familiars, how they work, and what they do? My "speaker of the dead" has invested points to gain one of the ghosts he has helped out along the way to be a familiar for him, so gaining an understand of how the systems work would be helpful.
    The rules for the Familiar Merit are on page 101 of the Mage 2e core rulebook.

    The "Familiar" spell can be found on page 183 of the Mage 2e core rulebook.

    The rules for Invisible Entities (which familiars are a subset of) start on page 252 of the Mage 2e core rulebook, with a sidebar on familiars on page 253; the Familiar Manifestation Condition is described on page 260.

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  • Hyuse
    replied
    Hi everyone! Can someone explain where in the books a full set of rules for familiars, how they work, and what they do? My "speaker of the dead" has invested points to gain one of the ghosts he has helped out along the way to be a familiar for him, so gaining an understand of how the systems work would be helpful.

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by orathaic View Post
    Where are spells once cast*? If you cast on a person, it follows them around, right? So then if you can see the spell (active prime mage sight) you can target it (with Wards/dispellation) at sensory range.
    […]
    *I guess my original thoughts on this came from Pocket Dimension, as there location of the Spell's subject doesn't exist until the spell is cast... Without going to the pocket dimension, presumably you could dispell on an iris which was created by spell. So if it was actually in your pocket it could be dispelled by someone looking at you... Actually with sensory range can you only see spells where you can sense the subject?

    So you wouldn't know someone had a pocket dimension in their pocket (with active mage sight on) unless you could see their pocket? Or the subject of their spell is the item of clothing itself, thus you can sense the spell if you can see any part of them?
    Spells are objects that occupy the physical space and time required for a spell with their factors to affect the targets or areas they affect. As Pocket Dimension is a Master-level Space spell that is not required to be anchored to a physical space, it can sidestep the vulnerability this entails, but accessing the Made space presents a window in which it can be accessed.

    Can you touch the subject of the spell and attempt to dispell at touch range? For multiple subject spells i think it is clear the one dispellation is enough to suppress the effect for all targets, but an AoE dispellation effect may have different results...
    For multiple-target spells you need to target all the targets to suppress the whole spell. If you have Fate you can suppress less than the whole spell, but that doesn't imply that it's easier to stop ten people from being frogs than it is to stop two of ten people from being frogs.

    So importantly, for AoE effects, can you activate prime mage sight and touch any point in the area to attempt a dispell at touch range? (Or sensory range of you can't get touch range by touching the subject of a spell).
    Bearing in mind the possible consequences of touching an area-effect spell, yes. The Scale of the dispellation still needs to encompass the whole of the spell's subjects.

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  • orathaic
    replied
    I don't think i have seen this asked.

    Where are spells once cast*? If you cast on a person, it follows them around, right? So then if you can see the spell (active prime mage sight) you can target it (with Wards/dispellation) at sensory range.

    Can you touch the subject of the spell and attempt to dispell at touch range? For multiple subject spells i think it is clear the one dispellation is enough to suppress the effect for all targets, but an AoE dispellation effect may have different results...

    So importantly, for AoE effects, can you activate prime mage sight and touch any point in the area to attempt a dispell at touch range? (Or sensory range of you can't get touch range by touching the subject of a spell).

    Actually, that implies you could cast a dispell on yourself to remove a debuff spell without active mage sight (if the spell is touching you then you don't need sensory range... Of course if only prime users can dispell, they can always use active mage sight with prime, but costs a mana for 4/5th of characters, and another mana per attempt to dispell).

    *I guess my original thoughts on this came from Pocket Dimension, as there location of the Spell's subject doesn't exist until the spell is cast... Without going to the pocket dimension, presumably you could dispell on an iris which was created by spell. So if it was actually in your pocket it could be dispelled by someone looking at you... Actually with sensory range can you only see spells where you can sense the subject?

    So you wouldn't know someone had a pocket dimension in their pocket (with active mage sight on) unless you could see their pocket? Or the subject of their spell is the item of clothing itself, thus you can sense the spell if you can see any part of them?
    Last edited by orathaic; 01-26-2022, 08:54 PM.

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  • orathaic
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    I think magic as it works and is experienced within the setting is a bit more than the game rules that can represent it, but I'd also say that discussion of how to target discrete parts of certain subjects is not on the right track because the magic is largely functioning on metaphysics of things being what they're typically experienced as.
    So you would say ppl normally experience a door and a window as a distinct targetable parts of a building, but not the eye, heart or arm of a person?

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    I think magic as it works and is experienced within the setting is a bit more than the game rules that can represent it, but I'd also say that discussion of how to target discrete parts of certain subjects is not on the right track because the magic is largely functioning on metaphysics of things being what they're typically experienced as.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by orathaic View Post
    Entirely fair abstractions for the purpose of a game. And as stated, you can remove the arm and then perform magic with it as the subject (possibly Death at that stage). Will it still have no withstand?
    Depends on the spell. Some would be Withstood by Durability, which the arm wouldn't have before it was separated.

    But it still seems like an abstraction for gameplay, rather than a description of how the magic works.
    Magic is described and understood through rules systems and only experienced through gameplay. For all practical purposes that is how magic works, even if the characters in-setting might never use gameplay terms.

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  • orathaic
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    The problem with allowing an infinite (or near infinite) reduction of the subject is that it would be completely disconnected from the rules for Withstand. Any spell that is Withstood by the subject uses the character's stats for the Withstand rating. A spell that inflicts an Arm Wrack is not Withstood by the arm's Stamina because the arm doesn't have Stamina; it's Withstood by the character's Stamina so the character is the subject. We simply do not track separate stats for subunits of characters so applying the spellcasting rules system on such subunits doesn't really work. Maybe the character is a pro arm wrestler (having a Specialty on "arm wrestling" and/or "right arm&quot, or maybe their arm has just become useable after previous injuries but is still severely weakened (which would be represented through a persistent Condition); the character's Stamina is still the same and it's the character's Stamina that is used for the Withstand rating.
    Entirely fair abstractions for the purpose of a game. And as stated, you can remove the arm and then perform magic with it as the subject (possibly Death at that stage). Will it still have no withstand?

    But it still seems like an abstraction for gameplay, rather than a description of how the magic works. Still it answers my question regarding how people play...

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  • Tessie
    replied
    The problem with allowing an infinite (or near infinite) reduction of the subject is that it would be completely disconnected from the rules for Withstand. Any spell that is Withstood by the subject uses the character's stats for the Withstand rating. A spell that inflicts an Arm Wrack is not Withstood by the arm's Stamina because the arm doesn't have Stamina; it's Withstood by the character's Stamina so the character is the subject. We simply do not track separate stats for subunits of characters so applying the spellcasting rules system on such subunits doesn't really work. Maybe the character is a pro arm wrestler (having a Specialty on "arm wrestling" and/or "right arm"), or maybe their arm has just become useable after previous injuries but is still severely weakened (which would be represented through a persistent Condition); the character's Stamina is still the same and it's the character's Stamina that is used for the Withstand rating.

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  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Originally posted by orathaic View Post

    My assumption was that a subject was anything which you could easily define in English as the subject of the spell. Or to put it another way, a subject would be something which we have symbols for.

    A cell, organ, limb or body could all be subjects of a Life spell. Proteins might be valid targets for Life or Matter, Chemical/Molecules and Atoms would be valid subjects for Matter - but you might want to try AoE effects on matter at that scale, as modifying a single atom isn't going to be particularly useful (even assuming you can get sensory range).

    Other Arcana don't have English words for subjects in the same level of detail... But i think you would allow anything be a subject, so long as the character can understand what they are using as the subject to form the imago.
    I suspect there’s an implicit difference in the symbolic intuitions for Life and Matter. So an organ is a part of the body (unless explicitly removed), but an aperture etc is not a part of the building (unless explicitly reinforced and integrated).

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  • orathaic
    replied
    Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
    So, I checked and I don’t think the Core rule book ever defines subject, which makes this difficult. My quick fix would be to ask if breaking the thing will reduce the Health/Structure of the thing, if so they are part of the subject. If not, then they are not part of the thing. Usually, breaking a window doesn’t really affect the overall structure of a building. Secondly, I don’t know how spells spread to clothes when cast on a person.
    My assumption was that a subject was anything which you could easily define in English as the subject of the spell. Or to put it another way, a subject would be something which we have symbols for.

    A cell, organ, limb or body could all be subjects of a Life spell. Proteins might be valid targets for Life or Matter, Chemical/Molecules and Atoms would be valid subjects for Matter - but you might want to try AoE effects on matter at that scale, as modifying a single atom isn't going to be particularly useful (even assuming you can get sensory range).

    Other Arcana don't have English words for subjects in the same level of detail... But i think you would allow anything be a subject, so long as the character can understand what they are using as the subject to form the imago.

    Spells don’t automatically spread to soul stones, even though they are Connected, without Sympathetic magic.
    Yes, i think magically connected and physically connected are treated differently, they are only the same for sympathy. Physically connected things can easily be seperated (like dropping a cup), whereas metaphysically connected items require considerably more effort to form / destroy.

    EDIT: i will say, the touching with a weapon thing makes me think you should be able to cast a spell at touch range on a circle of people holding hands. So long as everyone in the cicrle is taking part, a ritual cast by holding hands...
    Last edited by orathaic; 01-25-2022, 06:11 PM.

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  • TempleBuilder
    replied
    So, I checked and I don’t think the Core rule book ever defines subject, which makes this difficult. My quick fix would be to ask if breaking the thing will reduce the Health/Structure of the thing, if so they are part of the subject. If not, then they are not part of the thing. Usually, breaking a window doesn’t really affect the overall structure of a building. Secondly, I don’t know how spells spread to clothes when cast on a person. Spells don’t automatically spread to soul stones, even though they are Connected, without Sympathetic magic.

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