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  • Relatedly, what happens to visitors in an Oneiros of someone who gets their soul taken? What happens to the inside of the Oneiros when it disconnects from the person it's representing? Also, why is removing parts of an Oneiros capable of instantly making huge changes to a individual's personality while the total loss of an Oneiros confers much more gradual changes and starts out extremely subtle?


    Bloodline: The Stygians
    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • It’s been implied that the Oneiros is in the soul. There’s also no indication that I can recall that souls require bodies to maintain their state. Though I’d speculate that that they enter a stasis without a body providing new input. So, a visitor would probably notice that the Oneiros they’re in is still capable of being interacted with, but making changes in it is frustrating and more difficult (Or maybe not since the visitor would now be the Oneiros’ only source of new stimulus).

      Define big and subtle changes though, like if a goetia is yoinked that change is only as big as the goetia itself was, andcif you yoink the whole soul I don’t really consider the flipping of Virtue and Vice followed by a slippery slope into complete apathy really that subtle.

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      • Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
        The best way to find out is to be in the Oneiros when the person generating it kicks the bucket.
        The “best way.”


        Freelancer (He/His Pronouns): CofD - Dark Eras 2, Kith and Kin, Mummy 2e, Oak Ash and Thorn; Scion - Mysteries of the World

        CofD booklists: Beast I Changeling | Demon | Deviant (TBA) | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire | Werewolf (WIP)

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        • I never said that it is subtle. I said that it starts out extremely subtle because no one might even notice the change other than "he's been a bit perky these last few days". Yank basically any Goetia from an Oneiros and that person immediately loses that aspect of their personality. Depending on what that is, it might also be subtle but it can also be extremely jarring.

          Consider this: Removing some fuel rods or control rods from a nuclear reactor will immediately start affecting its performance, just like removing parts of your Oneiros will affect your personality. Removing all of the rods will lead to a complete shutdown, and the same seem to hold true for an Oneiros if you remove all aspects of that person's personality. (It's just not feasible since an Oneiros contains multitudes that can't easily be handled even with Advance Scale factors.)
          If you instead directly remove the entire reactor, you obviously lose your entire output. But if you remove the entire Oneiros of a person (as the soul or with the soul, doesn't really matter since it's removed either way), you don't have them entering a catatonic state. It's as if there's still a reactor there, with a little weird performance, sure, but fully functional. It's only over time that the major consequences of soul loss will take effect.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • I personally think of the Soul as the fuel of a person's being. The Oneiros is highly personalized, it's in essence the unconscious Mind, full with each individuals memories, fears, and other personality traits. Souls on the other hand are mostly interchangeable. As I understand it, and I think the book uses this same language, when you take out someone's Soul they start "running on fumes". They can prolong that state for a bit, but inevitable they shut down. But if you put the Soul back, any Soul, they will slowly rev up once again.

            A possible theory for what happens when you die is that a part of your Oneiros becomes your ghost's Memories, Anchors, their Virtue and Vice and maybe forming part of their Bans, while the rest just ceasing to be at all.

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            • Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
              A possible theory for what happens when you die is that a part of your Oneiros becomes your ghost's Memories, Anchors, their Virtue and Vice and maybe forming part of their Bans, while the rest just ceasing to be at all.
              Does not fit with ghosts formed from near-death experiences.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                Does not fit with ghosts formed from near-death experiences.
                Or ghosts of animals or inanimate objects.

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                • I don't think Inanimate object's ghosts even have Memories or Anchors or anything like that. Animals DO have minds, even if humans can't Astral travel to them. In Astral Realms it mentions some Mages debate whether the Oneiros exists if there isn't a traveler there. The way I understand it is that the Oneiros is the form a traveler makes sense of the unconscious mind. Just because we can't Astral travel to animals or other beings' minds doesn't mean they don't exists.

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                  • Do all the mages in a teamwork casting of a spell use a spell control slot while all the primary caster maintains spell control? Do they all need to spend a willpower to release spell control safely?

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                    • Simply put I don't think so, it wouldn't be worth it.

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                      • Just the primary caster.

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                        • If you open a target's Doors with magic, does they count as willing/convinced to swear an oath or does it also count as forcing them ?


                          New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.


                          The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists

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                          • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                            If you open a target's Doors with magic, does they count as willing/convinced to swear an oath or does it also count as forcing them ?
                            I’d say that’s going to be dependent on the situation.

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                            • Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                              I’d say that’s going to be dependent on the situation.
                              For example, you find a capable gunslinger, he is very drunk. You want him to swear to "defend and assist [given person] to the best of your abilities and may old guilts come due if you don't". If the gunslinger doesn't hate the person and you use magic to open the last Doors, to give that last push towards a yes, is he a valid target for Sworn Oaths ? I consider forcing him would be more along the lines of psychic domination, possession, etc. But Emotional Urging could count as manipulation, but I am not sure.


                              New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.


                              The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists

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                              • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                                For example, you find a capable gunslinger, he is very drunk. You want him to swear to "defend and assist [given person] to the best of your abilities and may old guilts come due if you don't". If the gunslinger doesn't hate the person and you use magic to open the last Doors, to give that last push towards a yes, is he a valid target for Sworn Oaths ? I consider forcing him would be more along the lines of psychic domination, possession, etc. But Emotional Urging could count as manipulation, but I am not sure.
                                What I mean is, does the person feel like they're being forced or that they're making a choice of their own free will?

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