Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[Tessie]

Sorry, I explained that poorly. I didn't mean Sleepwalker ritualists casting things completely by themselves. What I meant is that if a mage had a Mystery Cult full of Sleepwalkers, could they use Ritual Focus to allow the Sleepwalkers to add Potency to the dice pool rather than simply acts as an environment yantra ? The wording of the spell seemed to leave that possibility open and I just wondered if that could allow for a Mystery Cult that does that to create spells that help keep some kind of ancient horror in check.

The Sleepwalkers are Sleepwalkers and interact with magic as Sleepwalkers do. Being in a Mystery Cult has no bearing on that, and I see nothing in the spell that would imply otherwise. Sleepwalkers are inherently unable to form an Imago, and thus unable to directly contribute dice to the dice pool. Their presence during a ritual is only good as a Yantra because their bearing on the spell is dependent on the mage using them to reinforce part of the spell.
A similar spell to Ritual Focus could grant the Ritual Savvy Merit to a Sleepwalker, but that's a bit different as it's about preparations to the ritual rather than participation in it.

Edit: You could also cast a spell to make them a better Yantra, like As Above, So Below. But for balancing purposes I recommend either as a dice trick or as a fixed bonus (increasing from +1 to +2 is a bit low, but +2 is a good level for a Yantra you've spent some extra effort on) rather than dice equal to Potency because that's one of the most slippery of imbalanced slopes.

[rwknoll]

I am getting back into running a Mage game and I’m a bit rusty. I will probably have more questions, but these are two that I had so far.

(1) If I cast Wards and Signs, does it replace the standard Withstand rating or does it follow the standard rules for multiple Withstand ratings? For example, let’s say someone casts a spell on a subject that is Withstood my Resolve, and assume they have Resolve 2 and an active Wards and Signs spell at Potency 3. Would the subject have Withstand 3 or 4?

(2) Can someone walk me through a basic example of how the mechanics of sympathetic casting works? I feel like I understand it but there’s also some confusing aspects of how it works.

Let’s say I want to Scry on a subject with whom I have no sympathetic connection. Let’s say I have a picture of them on my cell phone but don’t know their sympathetic name. How does the casting work?

Alternatively, let’s say I snuck an object into their pocket to which I have a Strong connection (like a lock of my hair). What would I need to do to Scry now? Is this easier or harder than the first example?

[KaiserAfini]

I am getting back into running a Mage game and I’m a bit rusty. I will probably have more questions, but these are two that I had so far.

(1) If I cast Wards and Signs, does it replace the standard Withstand rating or does it follow the standard rules for multiple Withstand ratings? For example, let’s say someone casts a spell on a subject that is Withstood my Resolve, and assume they have Resolve 2 and an active Wards and Signs spell at Potency 3. Would the subject have Withstand 3 or 4?

(2) Can someone walk me through a basic example of how the mechanics of sympathetic casting works? I feel like I understand it but there’s also some confusing aspects of how it works.

Let’s say I want to Scry on a subject with whom I have no sympathetic connection. Let’s say I have a picture of them on my cell phone but don’t know their sympathetic name. How does the casting work?

Alternatively, let’s say I snuck an object into their pocket to which I have a Strong connection (like a lock of my hair). What would I need to do to Scry now? Is this easier or harder than the first example?

1- Wards and Signs substitutes its Potency for Withstand wholesale.

2- You cast the spell that Reached for sympathetic range, then spend a mana to activate the Attainment and using a yantra slot for the sympathetic link. Next you determine Withstand, to calculate the base value:

a) If the spell is not Withstood by the target: the effect is Withstood by the Sympathetic Range (found in page 173). By that chart, a photo is a Weak link and a hair sample is a Strong one, the value is adjusted accordingly.

b) If the spell is Withstood: take the greatest value between the Sympathetic Range Withstand and the target's Withstand, to tjis value you add 1 due to account for multiple sources

Now you take that base vale and should you not know the target's sympathetic name, then add 1 to that value. Spellcasting otherwise proceeds as normal.

[rwknoll]

2- You cast the spell that Reached for sympathetic range, then spend a mana to activate the Attainment and using a yantra slot for the sympathetic link. Next you determine Withstand, to calculate the base value:

a) If the spell is not Withstood by the target: the effect is Withstood by the Sympathetic Range (found in page 173). By that chart, a photo is a Weak link and a hair sample is a Strong one, the value is adjusted accordingly.

b) If the spell is Withstood: take the greatest value between the Sympathetic Range Withstand and the target's Withstand, to tjis value you add 1 due to account for multiple sources

Now you take that base vale and should you not know the target's sympathetic name, then add 1 to that value. Spellcasting otherwise proceeds as normal.

Ok, so this is the part that I get confused about then. In the first example, if I'm just trying to use the photo as a material sympathy Yantra, do I need to Borrow Threads to establish a connection to the subject directly? Don't I need to have a personal connection between me and the subject to cast sympathetically? Or can I just target them by holding something that has a link to them and using it as a Yantra?

It makes more sense to me in the example of using my own hair. I have a Strong connection to my hair sample itself, so if I'm scrying on the hair, that should be pretty easy by comparison, right?

[Tessie]

(1) If I cast Wards and Signs, does it replace the standard Withstand rating or does it follow the standard rules for multiple Withstand ratings? For example, let’s say someone casts a spell on a subject that is Withstood my Resolve, and assume they have Resolve 2 and an active Wards and Signs spell at Potency 3. Would the subject have Withstand 3 or 4?

The latter, 4.

Let’s say I want to Scry on a subject with whom I have no sympathetic connection. Let’s say I have a picture of them on my cell phone but don’t know their sympathetic name. How does the casting work?

You can't cast a sympathetic spell on that subject because you don't have a sympathetic connection to them.
Quick edit: Unfortunately a photo also has no inherent sympathetic connection to what or who it depicts, so you can't cast Borrow Threads on it to gain a Sympathetic Connection to the intended subject.

Alternatively, let’s say I snuck an object into their pocket to which I have a Strong connection (like a lock of my hair). What would I need to do to Scry now? Is this easier or harder than the first example?

You can cast the Scrying spell on the lock of hair. It'd have a Withstand rating of 1. Unfortunately you won't get any information from outside the pocket unless your ST is more generous about what the spell reveals, or allows a Reach option for "zooming out". Or, you could just cast a second Scrying spell on the person whose pocket you're witnessing, as a remote spell.

(2) Can someone walk me through a basic example of how the mechanics of sympathetic casting works? I feel like I understand it but there’s also some confusing aspects of how it works.

You need three things to cast sympathetic spells:
1.) Space 2+ for the Sympathetic Range Attainment.
2.) A Sympathetic Connection to the intended subject.
3.) A Sympathetic Yantra for the intended subject.

The first one is pretty obvious.
The second one can be a lot tougher, but there are spells for borrowing or even creating Sympathetic Connections so it's relatively easy to circumvent. You can also prep a subject by casting a different spell on them first in order to create a Weak Sympathetic Connection to be used in the future.
The third one is easy provided you have access to anything you can draw on as you could just draw the subject. It does not have to be a good drawing, as long as it contains something that is tied to the person. You could also use the Sympathetic Name if you know it.

When you cast the spell, you need to use one Reach to bring the spell to Sensory Range, and then one Mana to bring it to Sympathetic Range. And finally, you need to use a Sympathetic Yantra tied to the subject. This Yantra does not grant any bonus dice even if it normally would.
The strength of the Sympathetic Connection adds a Withstand rating. When casting on a person, this Withstand rating increases by one if you don't know their Sympathetic Name. A Sympathetic Name is a valid Yantra for sympathetic magic but you only need to know it to avoid the extra Withstand. (But if you do know it, there's rarely any point in not using it.)

Real example from my game (I don't remember the actual numbers so I fudged them into something that's probably close): Irminsul (Mastigos, Space 3, Gnosis 4) wants to provide a clean getaway for his cabal after having broken into the cellar of a Seer pylon's headquarters. He has prepared by casting Web-Weaver on a clearing in a nearby park to gain a Strong connection. He's also taken a photograph of the park on his phone.
He intends to cast Co-Location which he knows as a Rote, and spends his three free Reaches on the following: Instant casting, sensory range, and Advanced Duration so he has time to bring everyone through. He spends one Mana to bring it to Sympathetic Range so he can cast both here and on the clearing. On his phone he has a photo of the clearing, which serves as his sympathetic Yantra, but it grants no dice because it's a Sympathetic Range spell. He also spends a turn applying the Mudra for an additional 3 dice (due to his Athletics 3).
With a dice pool of 10 (Space 3+Gnosis 4+Mudra 3), he starts looking over spell factors. He needs to increase the Potency two steps up to Potency 3 because he needs Potency 2 for the spell to work, and the Withstand rating is 1 because of the Strong connection. With a final dice pool of 6, he succeeds and the spell is cast successfully.
As Father Albertus (the cabal's Obrimos) is buying some time by monologuing at the surprised Seers in the next room, Irminsul spends two turns casting Co-Location in this room and on the prepared clearing, and then a few turn showing the rest of his cabal mates and some kidnapped Sleepwalkers through the Iris (because only Irminsul has Space Sight and can interact with it), before Albertus legs it into the room and is pulled through by Irminsul who reflexively ends the spell to prevent the Seers from following. Exfiltration successful.

[rwknoll]

Tessie - Your example and responses are incredibly helpful. This makes more sense to me. I think I was gettinc confused about the difference between the Sympathetic connection, and the Sympathetic Yantra. So a photo could be used as a material Sympathetic Yantra, but because it has no inherent symbolic connection to the person, I can't Borrow Threads on it. Got it.

I know I've read before that casting creates a Weak connection on a subject. How long does that actually last, or where can I find guidance as a ST on how long to rule that a connection might exist?

[KaiserAfini]

Tessie - Your example and responses are incredibly helpful. This makes more sense to me. I think I was gettinc confused about the difference between the Sympathetic connection, and the Sympathetic Yantra. So a photo could be used as a material Sympathetic Yantra, but because it has no inherent symbolic connection to the person, I can't Borrow Threads on it. Got it.

I know I've read before that casting creates a Weak connection on a subject. How long does that actually last, or where can I find guidance as a ST on how long to rule that a connection might exist?

You can find a clarification to this in page 193, the Attainment specifically calls for a yantra to be used. In the case of your hair, you are the yantra to "person carrying my hair". In the case of the picture, it is the yantra to "person in this picture".

Borrow Threads allows you to take and give sympathetic connections without using material links. So if you have a piece of your hair, you can make the subject have a strong connection to you without placing it on them and risking them turning it against you (either by magic or detective work). Similarly, you could take the connection on the picture and store it on a keychain for future use. With some clever mix of that spell and a veiling, you could make sympathetic attacks against the subject redirext into a tree or a heavily warded magical item.

[KaiserAfini]

The Sleepwalkers are Sleepwalkers and interact with magic as Sleepwalkers do. Being in a Mystery Cult has no bearing on that, and I see nothing in the spell that would imply otherwise. Sleepwalkers are inherently unable to form an Imago, and thus unable to directly contribute dice to the dice pool. Their presence during a ritual is only good as a Yantra because their bearing on the spell is dependent on the mage using them to reinforce part of the spell.
A similar spell to Ritual Focus could grant the Ritual Savvy Merit to a Sleepwalker, but that's a bit different as it's about preparations to the ritual rather than participation in it.

Edit: You could also cast a spell to make them a better Yantra, like As Above, So Below. But for balancing purposes I recommend either as a dice trick or as a fixed bonus (increasing from +1 to +2 is a bit low, but +2 is a good level for a Yantra you've spent some extra effort on) rather than dice equal to Potency because that's one of the most slippery of imbalanced slopes.

Interesting, I need to think more on that spell idea. Ritual Focus does something similar to the Egregore merit, but perhaps it can be adapted into a way for Sleepwalkers to make a better contribution without it being broken.

[Tessie]

You can find a clarification to this in page 193, the Attainment specifically calls for a yantra to be used. In the case of your hair, you are the yantra to "person carrying my hair". In the case of the picture, it is the yantra to "person in this picture".

More specifically, you are a fitting material Yantra to your lock of hair. That would not allow you to cast spells directly on anyone holding the lock of hair. You can still use it to establish a sympathetic connection to whoever holds the hair with creative use of additional spells, though.

Borrow Threads allows you to take and give sympathetic connections without using material links.

Most often you do need some material link to cast Borrow Threads on in order to gain the necessary sympathetic connection.

So if you have a piece of your hair, you can make the subject have a strong connection to you without placing it on them and risking them turning it against you (either by magic or detective work). Similarly, you could take the connection on the picture and store it on a keychain for future use. With some clever mix of that spell and a veiling, you could make sympathetic attacks against the subject redirext into a tree or a heavily warded magical item.

I don't really get what you're getting at here. Regardless, you can't redirect any sympathetic magic just by transferring sympathetic connections back and forth. If someone has transferred a sympathetic connection between a mage and an intended subject away from that subject and onto a tree, then any spell that mage would cast using Sympathetic Range on the intended subject would simply fail. The tree is not subject to any spells unless it's specifically targeted and the mage uses a sympathetic Yantra tied to that tree.

[galivet]

Could someone please post a complete rewrite of Ghost Gate that is clear, detailed, and unambiguous, either here or in the Creative Thaumaturgy thread?

I've read every thread I can find about that spell on the forum and seen a number of different interpretations; the most recent was more than two years ago. There are so many ambiguous/controversial elements in it that I'd prefer to see someone's coherent vision for the spell entire than ask about various elements of it piecemeal.

[KaiserAfini]

Could someone please post a complete rewrite of Ghost Gate that is clear, detailed, and unambiguous, either here or in the Creative Thaumaturgy thread?

I've read every thread I can find about that spell on the forum and seen a number of different interpretations; the most recent was more than two years ago. There are so many ambiguous/controversial elements in it that I'd prefer to see someone's coherent vision for the spell entire than ask about various elements of it piecemeal.

I think the general idea is:

1- Living and ephemeral beings, plus anything they would be arguably wearing or carrying makes it to Death Twilight normally.

2- Everything else is destroyed and becomes Death ephemera as it crosses over. Exceptions include exceptionally powerful items,such as Artifacts, in addition to anything under the spell Death Touched Item.

The Reach option skips the portal and just "teleports" the target.

So the magically enhances sword, the fetish and the imbied item will all be destroyed as they cross through and only retain their base mundane utility in Twilight, unless someone is carrying it with them.

I think that is the intended use. Technically Death Twilight is "safer" because while ghosts are more numerous than spirits, they are bound to their anchors. I think that keeps the spell useful without having to cast Death Touched Item all the time and still makes the spell distinct from its Spirit counterpart.

[rwknoll]

I've always played it that if you don't use the +1 Reach option, the spell opens a portal for as long as the spell lasts. All clothes and personal posessions turn into ephemera when you enter along with your body, as you and your belongings are transformed to Death-attuned Twilight. If you walk back out, all of those mundane, material objects are destroyed. Whe the duration runs out, the portal disappears, which has no bearing on the state of the person; you're either stuck in Twilight, or you're back in the flesh, depending on whether you came back through it. The transformation itself is effectively Lasting.

Alternatively if you use the +1 Reach option, there is no gate; the subject, along with their possessions and clothing, is transformed to Death-attuned Twilight at the time of casting. When the duration ends, the subject and all of their personal possessions exit Twilight wherever they are. This is significantly more useful for purposes of keeping your equpiment intact, but it also has drawbacks such as spell control and ability to be dispelled.

[rwknoll]

I have another question for myself, one that I feel should be simple but I can't find a straightforward answer anywhere. If a Gulmoth is summoned (either intentionally or unintentionally) into the Fallen World, and it suffers lethal damage equal to its Corpus, is it discorporated but hibernating, much like a spirit would? Or does it slip back into the Abyss, like a Supernal being would?

[Michael]

I have another question for myself, one that I feel should be simple but I can't find a straightforward answer anywhere. If a Gulmoth is summoned (either intentionally or unintentionally) into the Fallen World, and it suffers lethal damage equal to its Corpus, is it discorporated but hibernating, much like a spirit would? Or does it slip back into the Abyss, like a Supernal being would?

Probably hibernation on the simple principle that Abyssal entities are tricky like that.

[galivet]

Do 2e Seers have the same relationship with the Abyss as in 1e? They want to widen it to reduce the number of awakenings and the overall availability of magical power in the Fallen World to prevent anyone from being able to challenge the Exarchs?