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  • Originally posted by galivet View Post
    Do 2e Seers have the same relationship with the Abyss as in 1e? They want to widen it to reduce the number of awakenings and the overall availability of magical power in the Fallen World to prevent anyone from being able to challenge the Exarchs?
    "Regulate the Abyss" is a tenet of the Seers in both editions; as Dave has pointed out, their particular institutional flaws mean they are nevertheless highly susceptible to Scelestus infiltration, but that's a different thing from them ever having been told to make the thing bigger.


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    • What happens if a spell that reduces an object's Durability reduces to or below zero? It suffers extra Structure loss when attacked?

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      • Originally posted by galivet View Post
        What happens if a spell that reduces an object's Durability reduces to or below zero? It suffers extra Structure loss when attacked?
        Durability doesn't go below zero and the only effect there is that it doesn't subtract any damage from the Structure lost.


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        • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          "Regulate the Abyss" is a tenet of the Seers in both editions; as Dave has pointed out, their particular institutional flaws mean they are nevertheless highly susceptible to Scelestus infiltration, but that's a different thing from them ever having been told to make the thing bigger.

          I'm looking in the 1e Seers source book where there are many mentions of the Seer's desiring to widen the Abyss:

          "Regardless of the reasons, the Seers developed two closely entwined mandates. They first and foremost dedicated themselves to widening the Abyss and attempting to eliminate or convert Awakened mages who opposed the Exarchs."

          " Most hope that by helping to increase mortal disbelief in all forms of supernatural activity, they will help widen the Abyss and limit the power of all other supernatural beings"

          "Although many Seers believe that widening the Abyss is one of the most effective ways of preventing further Awakenings, the Seers still need to be careful about Abyssal intrusions into the Fallen World."

          "Since the Fall of Atlantis, the Exarchs have been working towards strengthening the Abyss, so that there is no chance of the Supernal and the Fallen World ever rejoining. As the Abyss widens, the amount of magical knowledge and power available to mages shrinks. Without the power of the ancient mages, modern mages stand no chance of ever being able to truly threaten the Exarchs’ reign."

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          • Oneiros and Hallows

            I would like the collective thoughts on using the Create Truth Spell to create a Hallow inside a mage's Oneiros. I assume it's possible in the Shadow and the Underworld. Is the Oneiros a potential spot for a Hallow? If so what might be the point cost for such a Hallow? Just curious

            Thanks

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            • The Oneiros is only a location in a metaphorical sense, so I'd say no.

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              • Originally posted by Servanous View Post
                Oneiros and Hallows

                I would like the collective thoughts on using the Create Truth Spell to create a Hallow inside a mage's Oneiros. I assume it's possible in the Shadow and the Underworld. Is the Oneiros a potential spot for a Hallow? If so what might be the point cost for such a Hallow? Just curious

                Thanks
                The 1e book Astral Realms discusses this idea. Short version: you can, but there are vaguely defined "consequences". Mages who put a Hallow in their own Oneiros are said to become increasingly erratic and dangerous until either disappearing mysteriously or having to get put down. The possibility of putting one in a Sleeper's Oneiros is raised, with some believing that it will lead to the Sleeper's awakening, but more likely the Hallow will just fade away from Dissonance.


                The longer I study science the more I am convinced that it is functionally indistinguishable from what our ancestors would refer to as sorcery. And I would know, being both scientist and sorcerer.

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                • Originally posted by galivet View Post
                  I'm looking in the 1e Seers source book where there are many mentions of the Seer's desiring to widen the Abyss
                  Okay. You understand that that's a different thing from them being told to do that, right?

                  Like, the literal first paragraph that this topic comes up in highlights the distinction that the core mandate the Seers have from the Exarchs re: the Abyss is just that it should be prevented from being made smaller. There's also repeated mentions of the Abyss "widening" being something that is happening without the Seers' input, and they've had a well-established history of querying the Exarchs through indirect means with no detectable footprint like casting lots or reading omens with mundane practice, to say nothing of how "the Seers as a sect are heavily compromised by Abyssal infiltration" sees its most direct representation in the Gatekeepers.

                  They're self-serving infighting powers-behind-the-throne who have a bad habit of thinking that they should cheat reality for their own advancement because they can, which is and has been a flaw exploited by Scelesti and other forces of the Abyss as these activities further empower the forces Outside — as with Ammut and the Judges in Mummy, there's a moral compromise angle that can be looked at there — but any corruption along the sect's institutional timeline from "stop the Abyss from shrinking" to "make the Abyss bigger" is nearly impossible to chart an origin point for when the Seers have such a long-running tendency toward rewriting history, reassigning credit and blame, and otherwise making the Iron Pyramid a right mess to exist in even without getting magic involved.

                  If the Exarchs have changed their tune, or had their tune changed by centuries of Seer momentum, it's about as hard to identify the difference between those two things just like pinning down why the Abyss has changed the tenor of its interface with the world through history, because timeless god-magic is involved and we've got a rough enough task figuring out regular history. Regardless, this seems to be largely consistent between the two editions.

                  Originally posted by Servanous View Post
                  I would like the collective thoughts on using the Create Truth Spell to create a Hallow inside a mage's Oneiros. I assume it's possible in the Shadow and the Underworld. Is the Oneiros a potential spot for a Hallow? If so what might be the point cost for such a Hallow? Just curious
                  As Scriptorian notes, Astral Realms' discussion of the Arcana in Astral space talks about this in its Prime writeup — to summarize, they're not naturally occurring in the Astral, but you can definitely make one with magic, but the consequences are pretty dire; besides the rumors of mages with internal Hallows destabilizing, Temenos realms start to disconnect from the wider collective unconscious and Hallows in the Anima Mundi get scrubbed by the local in relatively short order.

                  Create Truth, as a 2e spell with additional details of how Hallows work (altering the local ley lines, accumulating odd supernatural quirks, and otherwise being definitionally unique or extreme features of the environment that manifest and crystalize Supernal Truth into the world), suggests to me that putting one in your soul is a fast track to becoming Enraptured.


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                  • Satchel and Scriptorium
                    Thanks for the responses. Just got the astral book. Basically Create Truth is the ultimate weapon against things you don't like in the astral plane . . .

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                    • More questions that I would love help with:

                      (1) I know I've read before that casting a spell creates a Weak connection on a subject. How long does that actually last, or where can I find guidance as a ST on how long to rule that a connection might exist?

                      (2) Per Mage p. 257, when ephemeral entities are discorporated due to losing their Corpus to lethal or aggravated damage, "If it has even a single Essence or Mana point remaining, it reforms in a safe place (a Conditioned location, usually), hibernating." Can a hibernating ephemeral entity be damaged or destroyed, or do you have to wait for the entity to reform?

                      (3) Does intentionally destroying an ephemeral entity risk an Act of Hubris by default, or is that at the ST's discretion?


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                      • Can a mage use Rewrite History to, at least temporarily, kill someone? (Eg, When you were a teenager, you mistook a coral snake for a milk snake.)

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                        • Yeah, although I'd consider it an Act of Hubris to kill someone even temporarily using magic and I also rule that this spell is "obvious magic" from the perspective of a Sleeper subject.

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                          • Originally posted by rwknoll View Post
                            More questions that I would love help with:

                            (1) I know I've read before that casting a spell creates a Weak connection on a subject. How long does that actually last, or where can I find guidance as a ST on how long to rule that a connection might exist?

                            (2) Per Mage p. 257, when ephemeral entities are discorporated due to losing their Corpus to lethal or aggravated damage, "If it has even a single Essence or Mana point remaining, it reforms in a safe place (a Conditioned location, usually), hibernating." Can a hibernating ephemeral entity be damaged or destroyed, or do you have to wait for the entity to reform?

                            (3) Does intentionally destroying an ephemeral entity risk an Act of Hubris by default, or is that at the ST's discretion?
                            1- I would say until their Nimbus fades from the subject

                            2- Yep, and it can't fight back until it reaches a threshold. So those without a Spirit caster can just sabotage the source of Essence and starve it until they are permanently killed or keep killing it (either with its Ban or something like Ephemeral Enchantment ). If they have a Familiar with a compatible purview and the Drain Numina, even better, they get an Essence appetizer and a full meal. If they want to gain political clout, they serve this chance to their rivals.

                            3- It does fall into Understanding Wisdom as a form of killing. Certain powerful mages would view beings that live in a less real strata of existence as illusory and therefore there is no crime in killing dreams, illusions or echoes of reality. These mages are the Exarchs and the less real beings are the residents of the Fallen World. So mages killing ephemeral entities just because "more will eventually appear" can be seen as a microcosmic version of that. So its certainly hubristic.
                            Last edited by KaiserAfini; 11-18-2020, 03:20 PM.


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                            • Originally posted by galivet View Post
                              Yeah, although I'd consider it an Act of Hubris to kill someone even temporarily using magic and I also rule that this spell is "obvious magic" from the perspective of a Sleeper subject.
                              Totally fair on both points.

                              It could be an interesting strategy to cast Rewrite History in that way to temporarily kill another mage, thus causing all their active spells to relinquish unsafely. I'm not sure whether or not they would revert back when the Duration runs out.

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                              • Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post

                                Totally fair on both points.

                                It could be an interesting strategy to cast Rewrite History in that way to temporarily kill another mage, thus causing all their active spells to relinquish unsafely. I'm not sure whether or not they would revert back when the Duration runs out.

                                I think Patterning could give the option, because it can change anything into any other form within its purview. So Fate can make a target take parallel actions at the same time and choose which, if any, happen at the end. Matter can change apple cider into tungsten. For Rewrite History, you could make the historical changes only affect the target (just like Quarantine suspends the subject in its own "outside space") or make them be part of the "main" timeline. When the effect ends, the spell can either bring them back to the "start point" or add any additional changes as well (such as cuts and bruises they received while in this state). It all depends on the intent of the caster.


                                New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                                The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists
                                The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate

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