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  • Originally posted by galivet View Post
    Is Clash of Wills the best way to resolve Levitate vs. Gravitic Supremacy?
    Gravitic Supremacy affects gravity. Levitation ignores gravity. Levitation thus simply ignores the effects of Gravitic Supremacy.

    Edit: Not calling you out specifically, but I think there's a tendency among players to default to Clash of Wills when two supernatural effects are in some opposition rather than exploring other options, and I think that's not a good thing. The default stance should be to resolve the conflict using the rules of those powers, and only use the CoW rules if it's the only option.
    For example, a magically sharpened sword vs a magically reinforced suit of armour should really not use the CoW rules just because a power that increases damage comes into conflict with a power that increases armour. You'd naturally resolve it using the rules for how damage and armour interacts. On the other hand, if the sword is enhanced to ignore all armour and the armour is enhanced to resist all attacks (two terrible effects for game balance, but whatever) then you get a conflict that can't be resolved. That's when the CoW rules should come up.
    Last edited by Tessie; 12-15-2020, 03:43 PM.


    Bloodline: The Stygians
    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • Originally posted by galivet View Post
      The main things to consider when deciding on Verge vs Emanation:
      • City-sized at maximum, or boundless?
      • Accessibly by walking into it, or only by Thurae or other rare circumstances?
      • Inhabited by (mostly) cryptids, or by supernal entities?
      • Shadow, or no Shadow? Note that this is super important for Spirit mages because Emanations just don't have native spirits. There's no Shadow and they're inhabited by supernal beings.
      • The rules don't mention this, but I personally also rule that Emanations are disconnected from the Underworld and there are no ghosts.
      Regarding the last two points, I guess you can say some Emanation has it's own versions of the Shadow and/or Underworld and it's own versions of spirits and ghosts for Spirit and Death magic to work on if thematically appropriate. But I keep those as facets of the Fallen World only. If I want a ghost-themed setting I would just use the Underworld itself rather than an Emanation anyway.

      The narrative purpose of both Verges and Emanations is to enable the ST to have weird settings with fun themes like "Dinosaur World," "Steampunk City," etc... Like if as the ST you want something akin to the Shadow or the Underworld but with a different theme and you don't want to have to come up with the whole cosmology of its complex relationship to the Fallen World. So first you design your setting and then you pick whether it's a Verge or Emanation according the above factors.
      I was looking for an area with a Mirror Twilight, accesed via following special steps from the Hall of Mirrors in the Hedge, sending you to an infinite continent of illusion. Think of the continent of Mira from Baten Kaitos, the Mirror Dimension from the Dr Strange movie or games like Antichamber, Manifold Garden or the Stone Temple from Majora's Mask. But guided by a sense of the geometry reflecting the visitor at themselves.

      I think that would be an Emanation, correct ? Its boundless, has its own means of access and special rules.


      New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

      The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
      The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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      • Eh, maybe I missed an important factor: Verges align with a Supernal Realm while Emanations align with a single Arcanum. If what you have in mind is mixing Space (scrying) and Mind (illusions) then it might be a better fit for a Pandemonic Verge. The "real" size of a place that is all about illusions probably doesn't matter; it can seem as big as it needs too (like a Star Trek holodeck).

        And, just because Verges can be accessed from the Fallen World without any special mechanisms doesn't mean that they're easy to find or that there aren't other more certain ways in from more esoteric realms.

        Honestly based on what you describe I don't think it even matters which term you use. Seems like a case where a rose by any name is gonna smell the same way.

        The distinction is a lot more important when e.g. you want to develop rival kingdoms of Paragons with thousands of years of history engaged in complex planet-wide alliances and wars, and you just can't build that setting inside of a Verge. You need Emanations when you want to build a game based on the Mage ruleset but with a radically different and vastly-scoped setting. When you just need an unusual location to visit as part of a typical Mage story then the distinction doesn't matter as much aside from pedantic characters insisting on the use of the proper theroetical term.
        Last edited by galivet; 12-15-2020, 04:01 PM.

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        • Question: Can imperial practices be cast using teamwork bonuses?

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          • Originally posted by Letalis View Post
            Question: Can imperial practices be cast using teamwork bonuses?
            Nothing mechanically would seem to not allow it, but most non-AM's helping would be rolling only gnosis at -3 as they wont have the required Arcana levels.

            However the Pax might not allow it, now i think about. Something about not meddling in lower mages stuff...

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            • Originally posted by totalgit View Post
              However the Pax might not allow it, now i think about. Something about not meddling in lower mages stuff...
              That would be lower mages meddling with Archmaster stuff (as long as the spell isn't for any of the lower mages, that is).


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                Nothing mechanically would seem to not allow it, but most non-AM's helping would be rolling only gnosis at -3 as they wont have the required Arcana levels.

                However the Pax might not allow it, now i think about. Something about not meddling in lower mages stuff...
                I suppose that an archmaster could use ochemata as assistants to avoid violating the pax, or else erase the mages' memory afterwards.

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                • Originally posted by Letalis View Post

                  I suppose that an archmaster could use ochemata as assistants to avoid violating the pax, or else erase the mages' memory afterwards.
                  Signs and Sorcery has this gem
                  "They’re often employed as ritual partners,
                  supervisors for an important project, or guardians for Artifacts
                  and places of power."
                  So it seems that is exactly what some AM's use them for.

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                  • What happens if a mage uses Perfect Recall on a Mummy, does it help with achieving Sebayt ? Does it require conjunctional Time to be effective ? I am not very familiar with 2ed, but I do remember some fascinating mentions of the Arisen now having a unique, non-linear perception of time.


                    New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                    The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                    The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                    • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                      What happens if a mage uses Perfect Recall on a Mummy, does it help with achieving Sebayt ? Does it require conjunctional Time to be effective ? I am not very familiar with 2ed, but I do remember some fascinating mentions of the Arisen now having a unique, non-linear perception of time.
                      Arisen explicitly never possess Eidetic Memory, no-sell any use of Fate or Time besides the Practices of Knowing and Unveiling, and apply Paradox dice equal to the highest of those two Arcana used even within those Practices. (It's not entirely clear whether conjunctional use of those Arcana would be subject to this effect, since the relevant sidebar says "spells from Arcana other than Fate or Time" don't.) Their relationship with time is such that all of their Descents have already happened, but a given interaction with a mummy might mean that a given Descent hasn't happened yet for them, which is mostly relevant because you're asking about their memory.

                      Their souls cannot be tampered with due to being made inviolate and marked as the property of the Judges by the Rite of Return. The things they can remember are limited by their Memory rating — dramatically so, before Memory 7 opens it up from two previous Descents and your job, loved ones, and death in Irem to every Descent and the basics of Iremite knowledge — and since that's a function of their soul reclaiming bits of itself from the Judges I don't think Awakened magic circumvent that.

                      Mummies most relevantly gain Reminisce Beats from uncovering hidden truths of the Nameless Empire and discovering secrets from your past or future Descents; gaining a dot of Memory, doing well in the Trials of Duat, or being exposed to unusual temporal phenomena might grant them the Echoes of Descent Condition, which allows them to temporarily gain insight (and Traits) from future experiences. My understanding of Perfect Recall is that it doesn't obviate the need for you to know what you're trying to remember so much as improve your recollection.

                      tl;dr You're not likely to get them to remember stuff they weren't already aware of at some level, though giving them the ability to go over something from a previous Descent to notice an important detail might facilitate their attempts to regain Memory, which in turn is liable to prompt a Descent roll if they're actually gaining a dot.


                      Resident Lore-Hound
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                      • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        Arisen explicitly never possess Eidetic Memory, no-sell any use of Fate or Time besides the Practices of Knowing and Unveiling, and apply Paradox dice equal to the highest of those two Arcana used even within those Practices. (It's not entirely clear whether conjunctional use of those Arcana would be subject to this effect, since the relevant sidebar says "spells from Arcana other than Fate or Time" don't.) Their relationship with time is such that all of their Descents have already happened, but a given interaction with a mummy might mean that a given Descent hasn't happened yet for them, which is mostly relevant because you're asking about their memory.

                        Their souls cannot be tampered with due to being made inviolate and marked as the property of the Judges by the Rite of Return. The things they can remember are limited by their Memory rating — dramatically so, before Memory 7 opens it up from two previous Descents and your job, loved ones, and death in Irem to every Descent and the basics of Iremite knowledge — and since that's a function of their soul reclaiming bits of itself from the Judges I don't think Awakened magic circumvent that.

                        Mummies most relevantly gain Reminisce Beats from uncovering hidden truths of the Nameless Empire and discovering secrets from your past or future Descents; gaining a dot of Memory, doing well in the Trials of Duat, or being exposed to unusual temporal phenomena might grant them the Echoes of Descent Condition, which allows them to temporarily gain insight (and Traits) from future experiences. My understanding of Perfect Recall is that it doesn't obviate the need for you to know what you're trying to remember so much as improve your recollection.

                        tl;dr You're not likely to get them to remember stuff they weren't already aware of at some level, though giving them the ability to go over something from a previous Descent to notice an important detail might facilitate their attempts to regain Memory, which in turn is liable to prompt a Descent roll if they're actually gaining a dot.

                        So it means an Acanthus would have an especially tough time against them, since the most they could do is understand the mummy at some rudimentary level. Its pretty disappointing that they no sell both major Arcana of the Path almost entirely, Geists shut down a lot of things a Moros can do, but not to such an extreme degree. Hexes, oath, prophecies, even attack spells, all of them just made irrelevant. Even if you do the only thing allowed, you get a major mechanical punishment for doing it, so its a Mystery they shouldn't even try to solve ? That is an odd choice, its a strong mechanical incentive towards non-interaction. If the cabal finds an Arisen, it means the Acanthus will have their hands tied in just about everything that requires direct action. Is that from Contagion, the 2ed core book or from some other reference ?
                        Last edited by KaiserAfini; 12-27-2020, 04:40 PM.


                        New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                        The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                        The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                        • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                          So it means an Acanthus would have an especially tough time against them, since the most they could do is understand the mummy at some rudimentary level. Its pretty disappointing that they no sell both major Arcana of the Path almost entirely, Geists shut down a lot of things a Moros can do, but not to such an extreme degree. Hexes, oath, prophecies, even attack spells, all of them just made irrelevant. Even if you do the only thing allowed, you get a major mechanical punishment for doing it, so its a Mystery they shouldn't even try to solve ? That is an odd choice, its a strong mechanical incentive towards non-interaction. If the cabal finds an Arisen, it means the Acanthus will have their hands tied in just about everything that requires direct action.
                          To reiterate what I said the last time this came up:

                          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                          To reframe the things Tessie's already brought up, "here's some Paradox" is the magic having unpredictable consequences.

                          Attempting to interfere with a mummy's Name at more than a cursory level doesn't work, and attempting to interact with it magically at all draws the influence of alien demon-gods made of pain and suffering just the same as if you'd exposed your Astral self to the raw currents of the world-soul and experienced a dreaming death — "something powerful's got its tendrils in your magic, and that's represented with the same system as a normal Paradox" goes clear back to 1e.
                          Further: There's a big fucking difference between casting spells on something and "solving" its Mysteries. (Mysteries do not work that way. You study them and gain information about them, chiefly through the universal tool the Awakened template hands you that doesn't risk Paradox at all.)

                          Attempting to interfere with the history and destiny of a timeless creature who not only exists at the center of calm spots in an otherwise riotous expanse of temporal weirdness, but is also the personal property of a god, should prompt a kick in the face from anyone who hasn't got a beachhead in Heaven to yank on.

                          You can still study the phenomenon, but a volatile paradox-monster running on the stolen power of manifest existence — which crossover material has seen the Awakened compare to handling raw plutonium barehanded — is not the sort of thing to expect to sit still. The Hedge can make your Mage Sight lie to you, why would a less hands-off piece of fateful god-magic be kinder?

                          Besides which: The Acanthus have always gotten along just fine by being indirect or granting themselves boons and bonuses, which are not subject to the limitations of direct casting on an external target with the Arisen's level of protection.

                          Is that from Contagion, the 2ed core book or from some other reference ?
                          Mummy 2e Core from the Kickstarter draft. To my knowledge the Contagion material covering crossover interactions does not yet exist in a public-facing form.
                          Last edited by Satchel; 12-27-2020, 05:38 PM.


                          Resident Lore-Hound
                          Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                          • How would legacy creation look like in game by a character? Not at character creation, but a midgame character creating their own legacy.

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                            • Originally posted by Letalis View Post
                              How would legacy creation look like in-game by a character? Not at character creation, but a midgame character creating their own legacy.
                              Depends on the character, the legacy? Since each legacy requires indoctrination (even self-created ones) each ritual/idea or method to create one is different. There are probably many self created legacies that are very very similar created in different parts of the world but have different methods of joining it.

                              The text is very wooly on how long it takes etc so just decide for yourself for your campaign, it should require some effort but need not be super hard.

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                              • Originally posted by Letalis View Post
                                How would legacy creation look like in game by a character? Not at character creation, but a midgame character creating their own legacy.
                                It would play out as the creator becoming the living embodiment of something that is meaningful to them. It requires them to understand and engrave its symbols into their soul.

                                They must explore its Mysteries, codifying their philosophy for engaging with them. They create spells that embody this ethos, using them often enough to become Praxis, refining them with almost instinctual ease. In time they master these Imagos to the level where they are inscribed into the soul and shape it, creating Attainments that become incorporated into their Gnosis. Their habits become oblations. The tools, scenarios and willful complications they employ (such as the Eleventh Question gaining power from debilitating drugs) become yantras.

                                But most importantly, beyond proactively exploring the Legacy's theme on the mundane and supernatural levels, there needs to be a moment of revelation. A eureka moment, a personal moment of satori regarding its Mystery. This will help symbolically codify their initiation. Moments of similar significance might even aid in figuring out or finalizing the creation of new Attainments.

                                Then they keep learning, refining their methods, seeking kindred spirits and building the infrastructure to support it. By the time they reach the third Attainment, they can start teaching others, leveraging the infrastructure they created to start building the Organization (traditions, habits, hierarchy, events, etc) and trying to draw new recruits. This is why a cabal where everyone created a Legacy would be seen as a legendary feat, creating even one requires commitment.
                                Last edited by KaiserAfini; 12-29-2020, 02:17 AM.


                                New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                                The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                                The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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