Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[Andrew Kaninchen]

The spell Ectoplasm (Death 2) says:

Ectoplasm (Death ••)
Practice: Ruling
Primary Factor: Duration
Suggested Rote Skills: Occult, Expression, Academics
The mage can create ectoplasm (see Ectoplasmic Shaping, above) from one of his own orifices, or the orifice of a corpse — normally the nose or mouth, but sometimes the tear ducts or ears. The mage can shape the ectoplasm into any shape he wish-es. The ectoplasm retains its shape for the Duration of the spell.

The way it's written suggests to me the plasm loses it's molded shape at the end of duration, but doesn't cease to exist, impling once created, it is just a sub product of the spell, not dependant on the spell itself.

What I'm trying to get at is: can my Sin-Eater character's Moros friend fill an entire aquarium with plasm so she can just drink and fill other vials from the thing whenever she wants and have essentially unlimited Plasm?

[KaiserAfini]

They're the same thing. Mage was written when Geist 2e was still a glint in Travis' eye, but yeah - the goop Death spells can make is the goop Bound can eat.

That is correct, Moros can be incredibly useful allies for the Bound.

[Tessie]

The spell Ectoplasm (Death 2) says:

Ectoplasm (Death ••)
Practice: Ruling
Primary Factor: Duration
Suggested Rote Skills: Occult, Expression, Academics
The mage can create ectoplasm (see Ectoplasmic Shaping, above) from one of his own orifices, or the orifice of a corpse — normally the nose or mouth, but sometimes the tear ducts or ears. The mage can shape the ectoplasm into any shape he wish-es. The ectoplasm retains its shape for the Duration of the spell.

The way it's written suggests to me the plasm loses it's molded shape at the end of duration, but doesn't cease to exist, impling once created, it is just a sub product of the spell, not dependant on the spell itself.

What I'm trying to get at is: can my Sin-Eater character's Moros friend fill an entire aquarium with plasm so she can just drink and fill other vials from the thing whenever she wants and have essentially unlimited Plasm?

While the Plasm is technically lasting because the spell draws out/generates Plasm from a separate source (rather than just creating it or transforming something into Plasm), note that Plasm itself doesn't last that long. Any unused/unconsumed Plasm dissipates at the end of the scene. The spell doesn't mention this rule, but it's included in Geist 2e which should be considered more authorative regarding the properties of Plasm in a Mage/Geist crossover game.
Also note that having an aquarium filled with Plasm is one hell of an Open invitation (hehe) for any and all ghosts who might pass by the location of said aquarium.

[Andrew Kaninchen]

While the Plasm is technically lasting because the spell draws out/generates Plasm from a separate source (rather than just creating it or transforming something into Plasm), note that Plasm itself doesn't last that long. Any unused/unconsumed Plasm dissipates at the end of the scene. The spell doesn't mention this rule, but it's included in Geist 2e which should be considered more authorative regarding the properties of Plasm in a Mage/Geist crossover game.
Also note that having an aquarium filled with Plasm is one hell of an Open invitation (hehe) for any and all ghosts who might pass by the location of said aquarium.

Oh, hadn't caught that part. I'd seen it mentioned in some instances, like the Plasm generated from Manifestations which have ended, but I didn't know it was a general thing. I guess it kind of makes sense, ~as sad as I am for my aquarium~. Although I think I could convince my st to allow something like an area spell in which Plasm doesn't evaporate.

About the Open Condition thing, yeah, I'm very aware of that hahahahaah

[KaiserAfini]

Oh, hadn't caught that part. I'd seen it mentioned in some instances, like the Plasm generated from Manifestations which have ended, but I didn't know it was a general thing. I guess it kind of makes sense, ~as sad as I am for my aquarium~. Although I think I could convince my st to allow something like an area spell in which Plasm doesn't evaporate.

About the Open Condition thing, yeah, I'm very aware of that hahahahaah

"I swear Mr Sentinel, this is only to study the marine thanatology of the Underworld. That walking ghost amplifier that is a breach of the Veil waiting to happen is just an unexpected coincidence"

A Shielding of entropy should do it, or a ruling to prevent it from dissolving. Although you can just use a Fraying to make the ectoplasm simply not work for Manifestations, a Shielding can prevent it from being harnessed by full ghosts (so only Geists can use them).

[Letalis]

In IM, it says that other beings with 6+ attributes may participate in Imperium, but spirits may not. Why are spirits excluded?

[Satchel]

In IM, it says that other beings with 6+ attributes may participate in Imperium, but spirits may not. Why are spirits excluded?

Same reason magical automata can't participate: they're the sum of their parts and don't strictly possess free will, in specific contrast to Spirit-based Supernal beings and characters with souls, who are the main participants in Imperium.

More prosaically, it prevents an archmage from simply offloading the risks of Imperium onto a god they built to take the fall if it screws up; Rank 6+ and Influence 6+ are not quite the same as Gnosis 6+ and a supernatural power rated at 6+.

[totalgit]

In IM, it says that other beings with 6+ attributes may participate in Imperium, but spirits may not. Why are spirits excluded?

Can you point out where it says that? Are you confusing the imperium for the Pax Arcana maybe? Pretty sure Rank 6+ spirits participate in the Pax Arcana and have equivalent powers to the imperial practices.

If you mean the chapter called Inperium then that's about Archmaster's games to change the cosmos so its natural that spirits don't get to play in it, not being archmasters and all.

[Satchel]

Can you point out where it says that? Are you confusing the imperium for the Pax Arcana maybe? Pretty sure Rank 6+ spirits participate in the Pax Arcana and have equivalent powers to the imperial practices.

"The Province of Gods and Sages," pp75-6:

"At the Storyteller's discretion, other beings may also play at Imperium if they possess a supernatural power equivalent to Gnosis 6 or higher, a supernatural power rated at six dots or higher, and free will. Spirits and magical automata may not participate. The candidate must also possess the ability to directly influence the Supernal Realms, but might possess a special nature that allows them to do this from afar."

[KaiserAfini]

Page 90 of Signs of Sorcery suggests that a mage can cast on a soul stone in the same was as a Familiar, using the remote viewing factor. Does that mean that so long as the sympathetic level is Connected, it can be used for that range factor ? For example a lock of hair, a fingernail or Daimonomikon of a Legacy Pedagogue

[proindrakenzol]

Page 90 of Signs of Sorcery suggests that a mage can cast on a soul stone in the same was as a Familiar, using the remote viewing factor. Does that mean that so long as the sympathetic level is Connected, it can be used for that range factor ? For example a lock of hair, a fingernail or Daimonomikon of a Legacy Pedagogue

I think it's limited to using a Familiar or Soul Stone rather than being a broad application of Connected Sympathy.

[KaiserAfini]

I think it's limited to using a Familiar or Soul Stone rather than being a broad application of Connected Sympathy.

That is what I initially thought as well, but both are used as examples of connected sympathy and the core book describes that level as "The two subjects are metaphysically one". So technically you are viewing a subject remotely by seeing a part of it. The main conveniences Space mages enjoy are that they can use sympathetic casting to avoid the extra Reach and aren't exclusively limited to connected sympathy, at the disadvantage of having to deal with Withstands, wards and the mana cost. Signs of Sorcery is worded in such a way that made me wonder if that was the case.

On a side question, is anything seen with the 2 Reach effect of The Outward and Inward Eye considered to be in sensory range, such as targets hiding somewhere past a scrying window ?

[totalgit]

That is what I initially thought as well, but both are used as examples of connected sympathy and the core book describes that level as "The two subjects are metaphysically one". So technically you are viewing a subject remotely by seeing a part of it. The main conveniences Space mages enjoy are that they can use sympathetic casting to avoid the extra Reach and aren't exclusively limited to connected sympathy, at the disadvantage of having to deal with Withstands, wards and the mana cost. Signs of Sorcery is worded in such a way that made me wonder if that was the case.

On a side question, is anything seen with the 2 Reach effect of The Outward and Inward Eye considered to be in sensory range, such as targets hiding somewhere past a scrying window ?

Prefer to just think that that spell is a mistake and should at least say it requires Space 2's attainment.

Since the mage has a Connected link to her own soul stone, this spell doesn’t require sympathetic range to cast.

Is this statement wrong? ( i mean the withstand is 0 but that doesn't mean the attainment is not needed.) Since when has having a connected link to something mean you don't require sympathetic range (or a link). if Web weaving spell allows you to raise a connection to connected (it only says up to strong though, thank god) then one could improve your connection then cast any other spell without sympathetic range...

It does start by saying "this spell" so it only applies to this spell rightly, but it just struck me as a aberration when i read it the first time. As not requiring space 2's attainment when casting on a soulstone would open up a huge can of worms (remote Aoe Spell soulstone grenades ahoy)

As for OIEye then things through a portal would still count as remote viewing, because while its in realtime its still using a
"magic scrying window, requires an additional Reach." and viewing it through a scrying window breaks the sense from being directly viewed.

[proindrakenzol]

That is what I initially thought as well, but both are used as examples of connected sympathy and the core book describes that level as "The two subjects are metaphysically one". So technically you are viewing a subject remotely by seeing a part of it. The main conveniences Space mages enjoy are that they can use sympathetic casting to avoid the extra Reach and aren't exclusively limited to connected sympathy, at the disadvantage of having to deal with Withstands, wards and the mana cost. Signs of Sorcery is worded in such a way that made me wonder if that was the case.

I just looked at the Sympathy table in the 2e core book.

Only Soul Stones and familiars are listed as examples of Connected sympathy, bodily samples are Strong sympathy. Based on that, I'd say a Daimonomikon authored by a Legacy Pedagogue would offer the same benefits re: remote spellcasting as a Soul Stone or familiar.

On a side question, is anything seen with the 2 Reach effect of The Outward and Inward Eye considered to be in sensory range, such as targets hiding somewhere past a scrying window ?

From the spell Scrying: "Casting spells on subjects the mage can see through the window counts as viewing them remotely."

I see no reason that would change. Ergo, casting on someone through a Scrying Window would require 1 reach for Sensory Range and 1 reach for Remote Viewing, for a total of 2 Reach.

[totalgit]

I just looked at the Sympathy table in the 2e core book.

Only Soul Stones and familiars are listed as examples of Connected sympathy, bodily samples are Strong sympathy. Based on that, I'd say a Daimonomikon authored by a Legacy Pedagogue would offer the same benefits re remote spellcasting as a Soul Stone or familiar.

I think it's limited to using a Familiar or Soul Stone rather than being a broad application of Connected Sympathy.

So the familiar condition does also mention this benefit.

(casting magic through a Familiar requires a Reach for remote viewing, but does not require the Sympathetic Range Attainment)

However, nowhere in the core book can I find where it gives this benefit to soulstones (or the connected level of sympathy) and I'm happy to just let only the "Soul Window" spell from Sos gain this benefit instead of every spell though a soulstone as a broad application.